31-05-2003 23:09									#31
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quote: Originally posted by GePap As I said before, and you continually ignore, the creation of a Palestinains state does NOT (repat, NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT) invalidate the right of return refugees have.

It does if part of the agreement setting up the Palestinian state is the end to all such claims.

	31-05-2003 23:12									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Edan It does if part of the agreement setting up the Palestinian state is the end to all such claims.

Oh, so one set of palestinians can only get their rights to self-rule and citizenship, if they surrender the rights of others?

Yup, there is that backwards attitude again.

	31-05-2003 23:13									#33
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the whole claims of right of return are jsut palestinian attempts to end the Israel state

no other group of refugees became so dominant )number wise) in comparison to thier initial state

Jon Miller

	31-05-2003 23:13									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yeah, I wondered about that. Would the Israelis be against compensation for lost property of Jews during Hitler's reign?

Compensation? I don't think Israel has any problem with compensating the Palestinians (indeed it has offered compensation a number of times. And the American proposal in 2000, that Barak agreed to, offered compensation to all the Palestinians).

	31-05-2003 23:14									#35
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Israel has a duty to compensate those who left

but amking two palestinian states would be stupide and unfair to the jews

Jon Miller

	31-05-2003 23:15									#36
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I mean compensation for every Palestinian who lost homes and businesses for the amount lost, not simply a blanket compensation to every person who is a Palestinian.

	31-05-2003 23:18									#37
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sounds good

a blanket compensation would be more though and would assist those who might have had better jobs and the like

Jon Miller

	31-05-2003 23:19									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I mean compensation for every Palestinian who lost homes and businesses for the amount lost, not simply a blanket compensation to every person who is a Palestinian.

IIRC, the amount of compensation (in the American proposal) was to be something like $30+ billion to cover all costs (such as bringing in Palestinians from countries like Syria and Iraq, etc) and including those compensations for homes, etc.

	31-05-2003 23:19									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller the whole claims of right of return are jsut palestinian attempts to end the Israel state

I guess that fact that it is a recognized right of all refugees, part of international law, well, that is irrelevant?

quote: no other group of refugees became so dominant )number wise) in comparison to thier initial state Jon Miller

First, Israel is not the state of these individuals: they have no citizenship.
Two: maybe the fact they have remained refugees fifty years may have something to do with it? Or perhaps the very large number of refugees givne the geenral population of the land in 1948-1950 may have somehting to do with it?

	31-05-2003 23:20									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Edan IIRC, the amount of compensation would be something like $50 billion to cover all costs (such as bringing in Palestinians from countries like Syria and Iraq, etc) and including those compensations for homes, etc.

Well, the Israel will have to pay 50 billion. look at it as buying the country, 50 years late.

	31-05-2003 23:22									#41
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quote: Yeah, I wondered about that. Would the Israelis be against compensation for lost property of Jews during Hitler's reign? Would they be against Jews being able to return to their former countries after WW2?

Actually, it's an issue that divided the Israeli society at the time.

quote: MOst refugees are never forced to leave. Force is never necessary, just committ a few attrocities here and there, make it plain that they might not be the only ones, and people get the message that they are not welcomed to saty were they are.

So you accept that Jews of the arab world are refugees, too? ( and in greater numbers, may I add )

http://www.meforum.org/article/263
http://www.jcpa.org/jl/jl102.htm

	31-05-2003 23:23									#42
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Well, the Israel will have to pay 50 billion. look at it as buying the country, 50 years late.

Well, given that Israel was prepared to agree to the proposal, I don't see what the problem is.

Of course, Israel was willing to discuss compensation 50 years ago....

(And it was $30 bill, my first number was wrong)

	31-05-2003 23:25									#43
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IIRC, the amount of compensation would be something like $30 billion to cover all costs (such as bringing in Palestinians from countries like Syria and Iraq, etc) and including those compensations for homes, etc.

That's totally doable. The US would be willing to fund a sizeable portion of that.

	31-05-2003 23:25									#44
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quote: So you accept that Jews of the arab world are refugees, too? ( and in greater numbers, may I add )

Indeed. Compensation!

	31-05-2003 23:26									#45
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$30bil? Israeli money? Yeah right.

Concerning the compensations from Germany, there was a huge argument on this issue. Violent demonstrations, Begin promising civil war, etc. IIRC the Knesset managed to get only a 61(out of 120) majority on the vote on the issue.

	31-05-2003 23:28									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel So you accept that Jews of the arab world are refugees, too? ( and in greater numbers, may I add ) http://www.meforum.org/article/263 http://www.jcpa.org/jl/jl102.htm

A, this discussion, again.

The definition of Refugee is clear. Most of those individual you point to would not count as refugees under the given definition, specially those that left their homes in the 50's at times that no open hostilities were ongoing. If you care to argue about the fairness of the definition of refugee, lets go ahead.

But as I said to Edan earlier: if those Jews are labelled Refugees, then they would have the same rights and Arab states would have to either lest them back home or compensate them.

So I see no point of contention.

	31-05-2003 23:38									#47
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Right, now that thats settled, lets figure out about slave reperations.

	31-05-2003 23:44									#48
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$30bil? Israeli money? Yeah right.

Improper attitude. It's your obligation, even though there are others who would help you with the costs.

	31-05-2003 23:46									#49
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quote: Originally posted by GePap A, this discussion, again. The definition of Refugee is clear. Most of those individual you point to would not count as refugees under the given definition, specially those that left their homes in the 50's at times that no open hostilities were ongoing. If you care to argue about the fairness of the definition of refugee, lets go ahead. But as I said to Edan earlier: if those Jews are labelled Refugees, then they would have the same rights and Arab states would have to either lest them back home or compensate them. So I see no point of contention.

but see, the arab states would just say, you can go back, which the jews would not want to do now, because it would mean the disolution of their state as well as persecution in the region they are returning to

the palestinians on the other hand, get money or the desolution of the israel state (and so money anyway)

Jon Miller

	31-05-2003 23:50									#50
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the palestinians on the other hand, get money or the desolution of the israel state

There are ways of structuring a deal where the rights of the Palestinians are respected while the nature of Israel is preserved. While you may not agree with the provisions mentioned in the article, I'm sure you can imagine a compromise that would be acceptable to you.

That's the point of the article. This isn't a showstopper.

	31-05-2003 23:52									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller but see, the arab states would just say, you can go back, which the jews would not want to do now, because it would mean the disolution of their state as well as persecution in the region they are returning to

None of which does anything to change what people's rights are. If Jews were to return and be persecuted, then we would demand that Arabs stop violating the rights of their jewish minorities.

quote: the palestinians on the other hand, get money or the desolution of the israel state (and so money anyway) Jon Miller

The Palestinains refugees have the right to return or fair compensation. Nothing you have said makes that any different. As far as the "destruction" of Israel, well, that problem was born the day Jews decided to try to create a democratic AND jewish state in a land in which they were a minority. Only the fact that 750,000 palestinains became refugees allowed that state to be both Jewish and democratic, but the Palestinains always had the rights to return, a right ensrhined after the horror of WW2, which showed us what was possible when HR were thrown out the window.

	31-05-2003 23:54									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DanS even though there are others who would help you with the costs.

Yes, like the reperations that the Arab states will give to Israel for those Jewish refugees.

Oh, wait, not even I'm niave enough to think that they would do that...

	31-05-2003 23:56									#53
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You never know, Edan. They might do that (with US help). Where does that question remain? I assume that this has been solved with Egypt and Jordan?

	31-05-2003 23:56									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Yes, like the reperations that the Arab states will give to Israel for those Jewish refugees. Oh, wait, not even I'm niave enough to think that they would do that...

Find the Jewish refugees (people meeting the definition as stated) and then you can talk about that. Otherwise this argument, as always (and defenders of Israel A;LWAYS bring it up), is a strawman.

	31-05-2003 23:59									#55
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And here is the defintion:

quote: The Legal Definition of a Refugee The law governing refugees and the processing of claims for refugee status is set out in the Refugee Act, 1996, as amended by section 11(1) of the Immigration Act, 1999 and by section 9 of the Illegal Immigrants (Trafficking) Act, 2000. The legal definition of refugee as used in the Refugee Act, 1996, as amended, closely follows that of the 1951 Geneva Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and is a person who, "owing to a well founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his or her nationality and is unable, or owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself or herself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his or her former habitual residence, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it, but does not include a person who is receiving from organs or agencies of the United Nations (other than the High Commissioner) protection or assistance, is recognised by the competent authorities of the country in which he or she has taken residence as having the rights and obligations which are attached to the possession of the nationality of that country, has committed a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity, as defined in the international instruments drawn up to make provision in respect of such crimes, has committed a serious non-political crime outside the State prior to his or her arrival in the State or, has been guilty of acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations." [section 2 of the Refugee Act 1996, as amended] "Membership of a particular social group" includes membership of a trade union and also includes membership of a group of persons whose defining characteristic is their belonging to the female or male sex or having a particular sexual orientation.

	01-06-2003 00:00									#56
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quote: Originally posted by DanS You never know, Edan. They might do that (with US help). Where does that question remain? I assume that this has been solved with Egypt and Jordan?

Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc. (And, of course, some Jews living in places like Hebron, etc)

I don't think there ever were any Jews in Jordan.

	01-06-2003 00:01									#57
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[QUOTE

quote: The Legal Definition of a Refugee The law governing refugees and the processing of claims for refugee status is set out in the Refugee Act, 1996

[/QUOTE]

Well after 1948, then.

	01-06-2003 00:02									#58
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Find the Jewish refugees (people meeting the definition as stated) and then you can talk about that. Otherwise this argument, as always (and defenders of Israel A;LWAYS bring it up), is a strawman.

There were 800,000 of them. I'm sure finding some of them would be no problem, if you actually bothered to look.

	01-06-2003 00:02									#59
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Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc.

I have the same question as GePap then. What are the numbers of these Jewish refugees? Edit: Cross-posted with your answer.

It is a quirk of fate that the compensation coming from Arab states will be much smaller than that from Israel, owing to the lower value of property in the Arab world.

	01-06-2003 00:04									#60
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quote: Originally posted by GePap It is hard to return when you are dead, now isn;t it? Don't trivialize the issue.

The palestinian refugees of 48 are mostly dead, too.