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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
It is a quirk of fate that the compensation coming from Arab states will be much smaller than that from Israel, owing to the lower value of property in the Arab world. |
Well, I don't think Israel really cares about the money (except as a way of paying off reperations to the Palestinians).
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:28
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Double Penetration.
Last edited by Az on 01-06-2003 at 00:55
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
The definition of Refugee is clear. Most of those individual you point to would not count as refugees under the given definition, specially those that left their homes in the 50's at times that no open hostilities were ongoing. If you care to argue about the fairness of the definition of refugee, lets go ahead.
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quoting from your quote:
quote:
"owing to a well founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his or her nationality and is unable, or owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself or herself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his or her former habitual residence, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it, but does not include a person who
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As been said in my sources, The jews in arab countries were persecuted, and therefore left. Thus the rules above fully apply to them.
quote:
The legal definition of refugee as used in the Refugee Act, 1996, as amended, closely follows that of the 1951 Geneva Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and is a person who,
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Both dates are after 48'.
quote:
Since Israel gives all Jews citizenship once they go there, thesae people stop ebing refugees the second they become ctizens of another state. For example, every and any Palestinian who came to the US and ebcame a citizen of the US is no longer a refugee, and has given up his or her right of return.
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How does this make the ownership rights obsolete?
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:28
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quote:
As been said in my sources, The jews in arab countries were persecuted, and therefore left. Thus the rules above fully apply to them. |
Exeptions to the rules quote by you right bellow them are clearly made and as I told Edan, Jews that went to Israel are within those exceptions. Yes, Jews may have left fearful of what might happen to them, but they also left knowing they would become citizens in a new land: they had 2 reasons to leave, not just that above that you quoted. To use Zionist notins: how can exiles returning home possibly be refugees as well?
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Both dates are after 48'. |
And the UN had passed security council resolutions affirming that all that was written applies to the Palestinians. So the date is irrelevant. plus Israel is a signatory.
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How does this make the ownership rights obsolete? |
Jews could sue for reperattions in Israeli court, but by accepting citizenship of anpother state, you give up the notion that you are a refugee, and thus unless Israel passes a law, and the other states decide to abide by it, or Israel decides to use frozen assets of Aab states, Jews who left thesae Arab states can't claim damages based on the notion they are refugees.
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
$30bil? Israeli money? Yeah right.
Improper attitude. It's your obligation, even though there are others who would help you with the costs. |
hi ,
when taking over arafats bankaccounts in swiss , brazil , belgium , lux , yeah why not , .....
if all the money the PA puts on its private bankaccounts where to be transfered to the people we might get somewhere , .....
when all the money hez****la makes from the heroin it grows in the bekaa then the people would be getting a state of the art health care system , ....
instead of giving money to print books worldwide without israel's or jordan's map on it would be spend on real educational books , ........
but since Israel in a true democrazy we cant even take hold of arafats backaccounts at bank hapolim , ......
have a nice day
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:28
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quote:
The president or prime minister of Israel should solemnly apologize to the Palestinians for the injustice inflicted upon them in the realization of Zionist aims, at the same time emphasizing that these aims were mainly directed towards national liberation and saving millions from the Jewish tragedy in Europe. Then, a "truth committee" should be established, composed of Israeli, Palestinian, and international historians, to investigate the events of 1948 and 1967 and to submit a comprehensive report that can become part of both Israeli and Palestinian school curriculum |
Frankly, I think the central premise is correct: that the issue should not be treated by both sides as "all or nothing." But that part, especially the "Truth committee," was hilarious.
Oh, a Bebro: Good one.
-Arrian
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Actually Edan I did look, at the UN, which is the definitive authority. Here is the point most important:
quote:
is recognised by the competent authorities of the country in which he or she has taken residence as having the rights and obligations which are attached to the possession of the nationality of that country, |
Since Israel gives all Jews citizenship once they go there, thesae people stop ebing refugees the second they become ctizens of another state. For example, every and any Palestinian who came to the US and ebcame a citizen of the US is no longer a refugee, and has given up his or her right of return. |
and what about the millions of people who are not even in Israel , .....
and as always in these type of threads , the real facts are forgotten , .....
do you know how many times the local Israeli embassy or consulate intervenes in countries for its citizens that are in fact people you refer to are palestinians , ....... 
not to mention that for most people who come here go for the Israeli citizens ship and leave after a couple of years to go to an other country , they use the Israeli ID to open doors in that country where they go , ......
not to mention that we accept and harbor more refugees then any other country in the middle east , .... people who flee our neighbors , ...... cause its so good over there , .....
and we let way to many of those stay , since we happend to be a democrazy we dont kick them out and some of them do nothing else then to plan ways then to kill people , ..... the less positive things of being a democracy , .....
and while we are at it , you should see the overseas Israeli arabs run to the consulate when they get a new kid born , ...... to register it and to make it an Israeli citizen , ......
as always the real thruth about Israel is not mentioned , ......
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:28
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Btw, just so you know, from 1948, to 1951, several dozen thousands of refugees returned.
Currently, I suspect, that some of the refugee claimees, are actually nomads who decided to jump on the bandwagon, to get possible reperations.
Obviously not those in lebanon or iraq, but those who live rather successfully by now, or are in jordan.
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gsmoove23
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Btw, just so you know, from 1948, to 1951, several dozen thousands of refugees returned.
Currently, I suspect, that some of the refugee claimees, are actually nomads who decided to jump on the bandwagon, to get possible reperations.
Obviously not those in lebanon or iraq, but those who live rather successfully by now, or are in jordan. |
Doesn't change the fact that there still are a large number of genuine refugees. If you have a problem, when a settlement is made the UN register of refugees can be investigated and obvious frauds can be struck off.
As for the Jewish refugees of arab countries, most of them left as an informed choice with the ability to sell of their property. There were no massive property confiscations as in Israel, so it really is a ridiculous strawman. Sure they can pay reparations, it isn't that much and yet it has no bearing on the Palestinian rights. There is no arguement to link the 2 in negotiations.
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gsmoove23
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Btw, just so you know, from 1948, to 1951, several dozen thousands of refugees returned.
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Yeah and in 67 about 150,000 new ones were made.
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gsmoove23
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As I said, the number quoted includes those who left out of choice to accept citizenship in Israel with the ability to sell off posessions as well as those who may have left under duress. The former group is the majority of that number and are simply immigrants, nothing else.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:28
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A Panag,
look at the definition, go to the high commisioner for Refugees,and find me the Israeli ones..hel, find me a single refugee camp for Jews run by israel...
Woops, there are none.
quote:
they are also refugees , ..... even the UN accepts this , ..... |
Please quote a UN site for this.
A refugee is someone who flees out of fear of danger caused by an ongoing war or violent campaign. Poeple who leave their state because they are persecuted, but not during a violent campaign are not refugees. They are asylum seekrs, migrants, exiles if they whish to call themselves that, but not refugees. All refugees, by definition, fall under the care of the high commisioner for refugees.If anyone here can show me the records of the High commisioner taking care of Jeiwsh refugees and making preparations with the state of Israel for camps for refugees in Israel, well, then you can talki about jewish refugees of that era.
Don't like the definition? Think it narrow? Go argue with the General Assembly.
Last edited by GePap on 03-06-2003 at 02:49
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VetLegion
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quote:
Does anyone really think that any country would abosrb millions of people who, up until recently, the majority of whom supported the destruction of that country, and whom many still do? |
Yes. I am from Croatia and I can tell you the expirience of my country. It is forced by international community to accept the return of all refugees, most of whom ofcourse have no love for the country.
In reality, most refugees do not come back. The young ones have new lives in new countries but the old do return to die where they were born. Both apply for social benefits, pensions and such.
So it can be done.
Why would there be different standards for Croatia and different for Israel?
Ethnic cleansing is a very effective policy, but it is a tragedy, like the suicide bombings are a tragedy. Neither should be a part of civilized solution to problems.
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
A Panag,
look at the definition, go to the high commisioner for Refugees,and find me the Israeli ones..hel, find me a single refugee camp for Jews run by israel...
Woops, there are none.
quote:
they are also refugees , ..... even the UN accepts this , ..... |
Please quote a UN site for this.
A refugee is someone who flees out of fear of danger caused by an ongoing war or violent campaign. Poeple who leave their state because they are persecuted, but not during a violent campaign are not refugees. They are asylum seekrs, migrants, exiles if they whish to call themselves that, but not refugees. All refugees, by definition, fall under the care of the high commisioner for refugees.If anyone here can show me the records of the High commisioner taking care of Jeiwsh refugees and making preparations with the state of Israel for camps for refugees in Israel, well, then you can talki about jewish refugees of that era.
Don't like the definition? Think it narrow? Go argue with the General Assembly. |
if you can find and quote the un numbers for the pals , well just look two pages further , you see all the other including Israel and Jewish refugees , .....
it cant be that hard , can it , .....
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
If Israel refuses to allow the Right of Return, then it should be expelled from the UN. It's joining the UN was conditional upon allowing Palestinian refugees to return home. Israel agreed and then renegged. |
we are the only country in the middle east that takes care of the refugees that flee from arab countries , ..... where is the un in those countries to take care of them , ....
a long time ago when doing patrols on the syrian border a huge exodus started , the exodus of christians and even arabs , being shiite or suni , who fled the countries around them , .....
shall we talk to what syria tends to do to its christians , .... the syrian security forces burn crosses in the backs of those people , ..... can you imagine what it feels like when you see a seven year old with a 5 inch cross burned on its stomach , ..... or do you want the pic maybe posted , ......???
and the un , .... *sigh* U know Nothing or U do Nothing , ...... the sit between us and syria , the refugees have to pass them , you think they give a ratsass , ...... they dont , .... so we take care of these people , most of them join family in europe , asia , even the US , who pays , feeds and takes care of them , .... who do you thing , .......
the same in Eilat , refugees swim sometimes over from saudi arabia , .... lotar of eilat found a guy not to long ago with one hand shopped of , ..... his crime , ..... "begging for food" , ...... the sem on jordans border with the bedouins , the same with the druze on the lebanese border , .... if we where such a bad country , why do these people come to us , ....
do you have any idea how many children are brought back each year that are kidnapped by the father from the us and europe , .... they run for the israeli border , ....
and the un , well they cant do zip , they cant even make up what they want , .....
if its anyone who should be kicked out of the un , then it shall be countries who abuse and violate on a day to day base the basic rights from the geneva convention and the basic human rights , .....
we allow the return , but not for example if a pals gets married abroad with lets say an iraqi wife and all the uncles and cousins of the wife want to come , ..... even in the us or europe that would be a no go , .....
so wake up , and if you want proof , come and see for yourself , .....
two poly members are coming in september for a three week tour , more people are welcome , ......
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01-06-2003 00:05
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