01-06-2003 01:55									#1
	Turn 107, 430 BC Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:

- 283 gold (including 80 we just got from ND), + ~121 gpt

Check this and every turn to see if we lost some war unweariness due to the killing of troops within cultural borders and therefore must readjust the lux slider.

Urgent questions:

Military:
- Launch Inchon and Inchoff unless we spot something that calls for canceling them.

Economy:

Production Phase:
- Short rush a galley in O.G. to cut a turn off production time? (We'd get the galley next turn instead of the turn after that, at a cost of 20 gold.)

Rest of the turn is TBD.

Diplomacy:

- Establish an embassy with ND using the gold they supplied.

Thread library:
- Standing orders for workers (Orders last revised April 5.)

	01-06-2003 02:09									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In addition to short rushing the galley in O.G., I'd like to use a granary to short rush the courthouse in Sufa (96 gold). That would cut three or four turns off the completion time., after which we could perhaps start work on a harbor there (since its shields per turn won't be as evenly divisible for unit production as most places' are). That would still leave plenty of gold for our embassy with ND. I'll allow about half an hour for discussion, or longer if someone objects.

	01-06-2003 02:24									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree.

	01-06-2003 02:37									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Thoughts on the rest of the turn:

- Main Inchon force assembles at Monsoon 4-8-8-8.
- Our Inchoff galley we loaded last turn does some scouting and then, barring a reason to do something different, meets the others at 9-9 from the northernmost mountain in the range by Hurricane.
- Keep building pikes in EotS and Hurricane a little longer. Inchon may need additional pikes before we can break Vox's eastern stack.
- Keep the cats out of sight from Vox this turn, but position them to strike at Vox's eastern immortals next turn when Sandstorm's borders grow.

	01-06-2003 02:50									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Production phase completed. Vox now has two vet pikes supplementing its immortals at Monsoon 6-9 and one supplementing its immortals at Monsoon 9-9. The units 8 from Dissidentville are a vet spear and a vet warrior.

	01-06-2003 02:57									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Scouting by our northeastern-most galley reveals that Voxian does not have any galleys in a position to threaten our Inchoff force. They've also abandoned their spear lookout position on the lone mountan 2-2-3 from their iron colony; they probably want to upgrade that spearman to another pike.

	01-06-2003 02:59									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I moved our wounde galley 2 so it would be closer to where it picks up troops. Vox has a regular spearman and a regular immortal at Dissidentville 2.

	01-06-2003 03:04									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay - Keep the cats out of sight from Vox this turn, but position them to strike at Vox's eastern immortals next turn when Sandstorm's borders grow.

quote: - Keep building pikes in EotS and Hurricane a little longer. Inchon may need additional pikes before we can break Vox's eastern stack.

Personally, I'd like to see us start a wonder prebuild in Hurricane next turn, but I won't mind if we delay it until the SS stack has been taken care of.

	01-06-2003 03:10									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Good news this turn.
We don't mind the pikes on the spinebreakers. In fact, I'm glad that they're moving more units to the south, it shows that they're not expecting a semi-deep landing.

Edit: Nathan, don't forget to open the embassy.

	01-06-2003 03:17									#10
	Got spare money?

Btw, believe it or not, but Lego is still a despotism.

	01-06-2003 03:28									#11
	Got spare money?

I'd like to take out Vox's core as quickly as we can to minimize the risk of their getting iron (edit: and of their being able to do anything with it if they do, since dead warriors can't be upgraded). The question is, can we start a wonder build without slowing that down significantly and still protect Monsoon if Vox launches a major offensive in that direction? (Once our galleys start playing shuttle service to Inchon, round trips will be two and a half turns; two if Vox pulls back enough forces that we dare to road Monsoon 9.)

I went ahead and established our embassy in Neu Theben. I'll include the shot of it in our end-of-turn screenshots.

	01-06-2003 03:35									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

ND has an active trade(s) with GoW. Iron?
Additionally, we know that they have the Medieval Infantry.

	01-06-2003 04:17									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Issues for discussion for next turn:

1) Do we want to switch Hurricane to a wonder prebuild (possibly even during the build phase)?

2) Do we want Tempest to produce 1-turn WCs or 2-turn MedInfs?

	01-06-2003 04:25									#14
	Tired of ads?

Turn and screenshots sent. I'm playing around a bit with our southern production to get our Sufa courthouse in two turns instead of 3; Typhoon can make up the production it's losing this turn next turn while Tornado gives up a couple shields it won't need to finish its MedInf.

	01-06-2003 04:25									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

1) IMHO, yes, even during the build phase.
I'd switch Tempest and Arashi to pikes, though (in case we need to replenish the Inchons quickly).

2) AFAIK we're not going on an active offensive anytime soon (especially now that Vox has pikes on the spinebreakers).
We won't be able to build WCs once we get Chivalry, so I suggect that we build WCs now and MedInfs later.

	01-06-2003 04:25									#16
	Put an end to popups!

If all goes well, next turn, we'll be making our Inchon and Inchoff landings!

	01-06-2003 04:31									#17
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

YEEEEEEEHAW!!

	01-06-2003 04:32									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Shiber 2) AFAIK we're not going on an active offensive anytime soon (especially now that Vox has pikes on the spinebreakers). We won't be able to build WCs once we get Chivalry, so I suggect that we build WCs now and MedInfs later.

On the contrary, I envision an offensive right into the heart of Vox's core once we shuttle two or three waves of reinforcements to Inchon. My bet is that Vox is deploying most if not all of their pikes in the Dissidentville area and that they'll have few if any north of Inchon.

	01-06-2003 04:35									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

[mode=monty-burns]
Excellent.
[/mode]

	01-06-2003 04:39									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Whoa, check out Madrid... stuck on 2 pop.
Of course, it has to be just a temporary condition... it's still funny though.

	01-06-2003 04:50									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

1 turn Cats in Tempest.

The problem with Vox's Pikes is that they can actually move onto the flats and expect to at least hurt us when we attack, and might have a shot at taking Monsoon. 4-5 Cats almost eliminate that problem. Given our numbers of Cats right now, and that they are tied up in the E, Monsoon isn't entirely safe.

Also, Cats are rather overpowered in a fight like we should be expecting now that Vox has Pikes, slow.

	01-06-2003 05:02									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Likely a Palace jump in the making. Madrid wasn't very well centered for their empire.

	01-06-2003 07:10									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hmm, good call, Aeson. I'd agree that they're probably looking at doing a palace jump inland.

Hey, ho, let's go! Inchon, Inchoff! Confucious say, kick ass!



-Arrian, who has had a few too many beers tonight.

	01-06-2003 07:54									#24
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Cats are at their best when they have multiple turns to pick away at an opponent. If Vox uses pikes for cover to make a move against Monsoon, what's going to matter most is being able to hit them hard the first turn. We don't have to kill everything that first turn, but we need to cripple what we don't kill to a point where we can count on defensive pikes to hold the city.

For that purpose, a MedInf is worth a way whole lot more than two cats. Two cats will, on average, take about one hit point off a pike. A MedInf has a better than 50-50 chance of killing a pike on flatlands outright, and if the pike survives, it's likely to be more seriously injured than cats would leave it.

On the other hand, additional cats might be interesting for the fighting around Inchon. Cats there would help in defending the city, in counterattacking troops moving into position to attack the city, and in defending and assisting troops that venture beyond Inchon to drive a knife deeper into Vox's heart. And moving our eastern cats to Inchoff when they're finished could be an interesting proposition; we could blast through Voxian forces trying to use the mountains to bottle us up and use our eastern galleys as well as our western ones to move reinforcements behind Dissidentville.

	02-06-2003 02:50									#25
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I like Cats for the future as well... anti-naval batteries.

	02-06-2003 03:09									#26
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

So are we decided that we want a few cats from Tempest?

I just had another thought on cats: if we station them at Arashi 4, they could move into either Arashi or Monsoon, take their shot, and still have another shot on defense if Vox has anything left to attack with. Of course we'd have to make very sure the city doesn't fall!

	02-06-2003 03:26									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

More cats to finish the eastern stack quicker and to deliver to Inchoff would be sweet.

	02-06-2003 03:32									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

We don't have a good place to build additional cats in the east in time to do much good. Keep in mind that we only have to get rid of 12 hit points to get all five immortals down to one each, and that should be about a 4-turn operation; maybe 3-turn if we don't mind attacking while a couple immortals still have 2hp left. Besides, we already have seven cats east of the river, and I can't really see us needing more than that in Inchoff.

	02-06-2003 03:42									#29
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

How do we plan to take on D'Ville?
The obvious course of action would be to advance through the spinebreakers. Move forward, road, move forward again, deal with any enemy units that show up on the way with cats and medinfs and keep moving.
If Vox circulates their mountain defenses, it could take us much longer than we desire to reach D'Ville.
Another approach would be to advance from the north, ferrying units to Inchoff with our eastern galleys and to the road intersection above D'Ville with our western galleys and using the road to reach D'Ville.
Sure, jungle isn't as good as mountains when it comes to defense, but I'd like to see Vox try to hurt our pikes anyway. We can move 2 tiles each time and fortify at the end of the turn - that would give Vox 4.5 veteran pikes covered by fortified cats to go through. Plus, it won't be nearly as hard to break through Vox's defenses if we approach from that direction.
I'm not entirely sure about this idea, but I decided to post it for discussion anyway. Perhaps it has some merit.

	02-06-2003 04:44									#30
	Remove this text

Remember that someone here said fortification in the middle of the turn doesn't count.

Even so, if the road remains intact, I think coming in from the north is probably our best approach. With cats involved, Vox will have only about a 50-50 chance attacking our pikes even using veteran immortals. That still sounds pretty good for them, until you consider that any immortals who beat our pikes are dead meat when our turn comes. Overall, we could expect a kill/loss ratio at least close to 2:1 in our favor.

Of course if Vox pulls enough of their troops back from Dissidentville in order to deal with Inchon and Inchoff, a march on Dissidentville through the mountains will start looking very good.

But if Vox doesn't give us that opening, I view Vox's core as a higher piority than taking Dissidentville. After all, their core is where the lion's share of their production is, and it's probably seriously underdefended at the moment thanks to their large number of troops around Dissidentville.