01-06-2003 08:46									#1
	AI and Nukes Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have played several games so far....and one constant I have noticed....

the AI will use Nukes without thought...at least until they get down to 1 on the Armegeddon counter....

Now, I don't necesarily have a problem with nukes, or the ai using them...just wondering why they use them without even 2nd thought....

I have noticed, that if you don't beat, or at least follow the ai into modern age very quickly....it is all but finished for you. Why? cause of the Nuking the AI does....and they hit cities that they have no hopes of capturing anytime soon....

On one hand, it makes sense...strike at the economy...cause a nuke on a large city can devestate your economy. But, at the same time....i have never seen the ai use a nuke to reduce a city they are trying to capture....it is always deep in my territory (or the other ai's territory)...

I am just trying to understand the general strategy the ai uses in utilizing nukes....does anyone have any ideas?

	01-06-2003 09:02									#2
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As you are describing it the AI does exactly what I do so I have no complaints. It makes the AI seem more human and that is good.

	01-06-2003 10:08									#3
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Here is one problem with the AI...

Say you have an 8 player game (you + 7 AI). The armageddon ticker is already at 1. Most if not all the AI's have nukes.

Now if somebody researches missile defense and the ticker will go to 3. Now all the AI's realize the ticker isn't 1 anymore and ALL WILL DO A MAGNUM LAUNCH -- since the armageddon ticker is not at 1, all AI's feel they are free to liberally use at least 2 nukes again. This will happen every time. And every time armageddon will ensue. Trust me, I know.

	02-06-2003 03:54									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

i've never gotten armageddon happen, actually.

then again, i'm still working on my 1337 sk|11z, so.

	02-06-2003 06:59									#5
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I am not really complaining....I am just trying to understand the strat of the ai using them on cities that are so far from the border, that there is no hope of capturing the city....

Is it just to simply hurt the economy?

I would really like to see something more to deter the use of nukes...nukes should be a very strong defense (or, offense too)....just wish there was more a way to defend against them, other than the missle defense end game tech....

It becomes a total nukefest once modern comes around....there is an age of nukes flying all over the place....and usually by the time you get the missle defense tech, the armegeddon counter is already very low....

What about the world's economy dropping some too...after a nuke has been fired....or something...i know there is a trade embargo for 5 minutes....but is that enough to control nukes?

The Cold War was controlled by the fact that a nuclear war would destroy the world...but there is no cold war factor in the game...only the armeggedon factor...

What about this idea....

each game the armeggedon factor is randomized, with no one really knowing how many nukes CAN be launched?

	02-06-2003 10:26									#6
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Nukes are the great equalizer. If the winning side starts throwing nukes about they run a huge risk of causing armageddon. But the losing side has nothing to lose so will use nukes like crazy.

But as long as ur smart with Spies, Commandos and Cruise Missiles you can stop Armageddon from occuring pretty easily.

	02-06-2003 12:14									#7
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i pulled an armegeddon in a game i was going to lose.

suckers!

	02-06-2003 22:13									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX i pulled an armegeddon in a game i was going to lose. suckers!

"Im going down, so youre going down with me!" nice one

	02-06-2003 22:21									#9
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i pulled an armegeedon in a mp game i about to lose, the other team wasnt very happen. Too bad the couldnt find my silos.

	02-06-2003 22:23									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

If I were to launch nukes, I'd precisely hit the cities I'm *not* planning to capture since I'm already at the doorstep of front-line cities that I can capture without major damage. Your back-end cities are also likely to be the most built-up in terms of economy while front-line cities are often military outposts more than major econ centers.

I'd have a bigger problem with all the nukes flying if nukes indeed leveled the landscape more. As it stands, though, the nukes --though devestating in some ways-- don't wipe out huge tracks of land or anything. They are just effective at making major hits to the econ centers deep in enemy territory. As such, I see them as a good way to cut off the economic feet of an army without first having to bulldoze deep into enemy territory.

Kind of startling, though, how many of these things start to fly...

	02-06-2003 22:47									#11
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I'm finding cruise missles to be much more cost effective than nukes. You can build 5 for the cost of one nuke, plus the research upgrade from V2 to cruise is much quicker and cheaper than the initial research for nukes or the icbm upgrade. 5 cruise missles will more or less destroy whatever needs destroying, be it a city center, a wonder, a couple military production buildings etc. Plus the graphics are really cool. A nuke just flies up and then you lose sight of it until the last second when it comes straight down and hits. The cruise missles fly in a straight line across the map, with this neat trail of smoke behind them (almost like a firecracker). It's really cool when you see those things flying in over your troops to blow up buildings behind the front lines.

	02-06-2003 23:15									#12
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While this may have belonged in the general area at first, it has quickly become more stategy oriented, so I moved it.

Rich

	02-06-2003 23:38									#13
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Kind of startling, though, how many of these things start to fly...

i was in a 3v3 yesterday, that ended up fairly interesting.

i was pulling my standard boomer strategies, when i realized that one of my enemies had his capital near lots of open space (to his right, in the bottom right corner).

so, i built a fort, rolled back the borders, and took much of that lower corner. then i polpped down a city, temple, and another fort, and rolled back his border enough to siege from my own territory.

simpley awesome, but i'm getting way off topic.

i started my attacks way ahead of my boomer schedule, because all 34 of the enemies were attacking one of my allies. i was too far away to aid him, so i figured i'd draw attention.

2 of them sent their armies back, after i had already taken their capital. i had begun repairs, but not enough were done when they arrived. i killed nearly all of their troops, but in the end lost out, i continued to rebuild.

i launched this same attack 2 more times, and a different one once. i drew enough atention to myself to get blue to KEEP his army there, which gave my ally enough time to play catch up.

only one problem, the other enemy, that was in between the two others, was advancing. scary fast. all of a sudden i see "SiA (i forget name) has advanced to the Modern Age". My stomach drops, i'm still in enlightenment. too much time focused on the wars.

i immediately start research on industrial (using the market to buy needed resources). I'm playing inca, and neglecting research has given me a stockpile of gold.

anyway, by the time i start researching modern, he has started global prosperity, and my gold reserves are falling. my informers see that he has a decent sized army of more advanced units on the border, i know theres no chance for me to win this, and theres not much of a chance for me to get to the info age, so i start building troops, and getting nukes.

my ally seems to have the same idea, sending me a message of "let's just nuke them to hell".

about 10 seconds after he said that, nuclear launch detected. 3 times. 3 red ovals shrinking over his major cities. ICBMs. everything decimated. silos gone. he plays it like a man and rebuilds. i help by donating resources.

red then sends his main army towards teal, ironically passing through my territory. i pick off a supply wagon as he passes a fort, and some of his army starts taking attrition. he notices and nukes me.

finally, i hae 3 nukes ready. fired them off. took out his silos (he had 5 that i saw), and hurt his economy a bit. my ally got nukes again a little after, after red had taken some of his cities. he nuked reds army, and then nuked a city. red somehow had mroe silos, drops 1 on me, 2 on him.

after that, all hell broke loose. everybody got nukes, a 3v3, in the modern+ age, with everbody's nukes.

the game just exploded in mushroom clouds, until armegheddon.

thats what i get for falling behind in tech,

	03-06-2003 09:05									#14
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yea
it happen to me b4

	03-06-2003 09:25									#15
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I personally love how liberal the AI is in its use of nuclear weapons. It lobs them around like they are toys. I know it's just a game, but the idea of national leaders having no regard for life is somewhat humourous. I'm not morbid, I find it funny because in reality it is such a serious issue while in the game we see what can happen without real consequences.

I was playing a game today on Moderate difficulty; 7 computers (3 and me vs 4) on East Meets West map. I had the Apollo Program wonder, and could see the whole map. In the information age, my allies just launched nuke after nuke at the enemy; all of their nations were just completely devestated (of course, I had 3 fleets of stealth bombers also levelling everything in sight), but it was still really weird to see that. When the Armageddon clock was down to 2, the nukes stopped and everyone invaded. There were some massive armies (well my allies didn't send much, but I sent everything I had) rampaging across their devestated continent, meeting virtually no resistance. The few armies the computers did have were maybe a half dozen foot soldiers and 1 or 2 tanks, but everything had just been burnt to the ground. It was a really weird way to fight, yet at the same time it was strangely satisfying.

I still like how the computers really use nukes though. I used to play Civilization a lot, and while the computers would boast about their nukes all the time, they rarely used them (if ever). It's refreshing to see the AI just haphazardly throwing nuclear weapons around.

	03-06-2003 12:25									#16
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Not sure if the AI actually evaluates a target or not, though the few times its nuked me its been major citys. It might also be other cities not in range. Then again they could just blindfold there leader while he picks one at random. :P I personally use nukes to take out production clusters, few auto-plants/barracks/etc.. all together. Useful right before an invasion so you aren't hit with fresh troops immediatedly. I like and dislike how the AI will stop nuking when armageddon aproaches, a losing AI shouldn't care and nuke everyone to hell. A winning one shouldn't of course.

Oh and did BHG add a "My words are backed with nuclear weapons!" taunt? If not, we outta start a petition.