02-06-2003 20:05									#1
	The Apolyton Science Fiction Book Club: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress Get a bigger avatar today!

Title: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
Author: Robert Heinlein
Published: 1966
Copyright: Robert Heinlein (or his estate)
Publisher: Tor Books (at least the 1996 reprint is Tor)

From the book jacket: “It is a tale of revolution, of the rebellion of a former penal colony on the Moon against its masters on the Earth. It is a tale of a culture whose family structures are based on the presence of two men for every woman, leading to novel forms of marriage and family. It is the story of the disparate people – a computer technician, a vigorous young female agitator, and an elderly academic – who become the movement’s leaders. And it is the story of Mike, the supercomputer whose sentience is known only to the revolt’s inner circle, who for reasons of his own is committed to the revolution’s ultimate success.

It is one of the high points of modern science fiction, a novel bursting with invention, with a natural-seeming future dialect, with familial warmth and human passion, with insight into artificial intelligence and grass-roots politics, and the problems of human freedom and the overweening State. It is a great political novel and a great survey of the human prospect. It is an outstanding novelist’s most outstanding work.”

Oh, yeah? Really? I don’t believe it. Hell, Time Enough for Love was better than this claptrap.

How is it that an intelligent person, after seeing how the following:

Automobiles
Transistors
Plastics
Television
Radio

and etc. flow down into mass-consumption within mere years (at most 2 decades) of their invention, cannot predict the idea that the computer would filter down to everyday use? Did Heinlein truly expect that the “Priesthood” of computer technicians that existed in 1966 would perpetuate itself for another 110 years?

I know that this is my particular pet peeve, but when a premise becomes so flawed as to render the entire story nonsensical (as in the Matrix and batteries), I totally lose my suspension of disbelief. Oh, I know a lot of you are excited about the idea of a Libertarian revolution, but the fact is that the premise is so damned silly (rebels being helped by the only ( ) computer on the moon, all while Earth authorities remain ignorant until over halfway into the book) that I cannot really focus on anything other than "God, this is a waste of my time."

Speaking of the society… since when do prisoners willfully emasculate themselves? Tell you what: toss 250 women in a 500 man prison, wait 10 years, and see if the women take control. Who here thinks that’s going to happen?

… silence…

I thought so.

Something tells me that the natural aggressiveness of males would bring about a hierarchy of harems, i.e., the man with the most booty claiming allegiance to him is top dog. The idea that unintelligent, violent prisoners (I mean, they’re not shipping people who committed misdemeanors or traffic violations up there) would automatically become intelligent gentlemen when faced with a society where there are 2 men for every woman is wishful thinking at best. Try again, Robert.

	02-06-2003 23:36									#2
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John, John, John..

I thought this was a WONDERFUL book, I loved it! Absolutely did. It was fabulous to see the solar system's smartest computer basically come 'alive' and help with a revolution. With the Prof and Mike (the computer) planning out everything in order to make the mission a success. Outwitting the Earth authorities and successfuly guiding a revolution. If I was writing 1966, I wouldn't think computers would infilitrate everyday use either. Then again, would it have to? After all Mike controls everything. Even though there are other computers, why would you need another one?

As for the women taking over... you did realize that women weren't in the prision, yah? And most of this book doesn't take place in a prision, right? In cities of free men, I don't see the problem with men sticking up for women when they are faced with sexual assault. The women deciding when and what can easily happen. After all there have been plenty of matriarchial societies on Earth. It isn't that far featched to me at all. I mean take 250 women and put them in a regular American town of 500 men. I could easily see Heinlein's premise being adopted, especially in a future society where women aren't seen as property, etc.

I liked the unpolitical Manny being a leader of this revolt. You see things through his eyes and the hesitation of the beginning really comes out. I love the loony 'slang' used, and the interesting form of marriages. Though the best, and saddest, part was when Mike stopped talking, basically saying, 'you guys are on your own now'.

	03-06-2003 00:00									#3
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"After all there have been plenty of matriarchial societies on Earth."

Really? Where and when, and how many people under the largest?

	03-06-2003 00:09									#4
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Many ancient societies were matriarchial. Ancient (Early) Egypt was a matriarchal society (women as manifestations of the Mother Goddess), as were many in West Africa. Mespotamian societies as well as those in Anatolia were matrilinial, if not matriarchial.

A good book to read on this is The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State by Friedrich Engels. Don't let the author throw you off, it's a good read (and where Heinlein, I believe, got his ideas for line marriages).

I think che could direct you to others (IIRC, he argued for matriarchial societies in antiquity).

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 03-06-2003 at 00:14

	03-06-2003 00:17									#5
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The Scythians on the northern coast of the Black sea were matriarchal.

Incidently, Mike was not the only computer. There was at least one other (remember? They found it at the Hong Kong Bank and Mike was "training" it to fire the catapult?).

Mike was the Central computer for a centralized economy. Heinlein was making it clear that the Free Market was severly hampered by the Lunar Authority's command economy. A large central computer like Mike was just one more sympton of command economies.

	03-06-2003 00:37									#6
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There are a lot of implausibilities in the book, created mainly for the purpose of driving the story. The biggest one is that anyone could belive that a lunar colony of three million people could create enough grain to stop famine in India.

I'll comment more when I get home from work. It's a fun read, but it won't hold up to a critical analysis, which, after all, is the point of a SciFi book club.

	03-06-2003 00:54									#7
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quote: There are a lot of implausibilities in the book, created mainly for the purpose of driving the story.

Well isn't that the mark of all sci-fi . Like in Red Mars... colony on Mars in 2029? Yeah right... but we don't read sci-fi for accuracy, but for the interesting worlds and new technologies. This is an 'interesting world' tale.

	03-06-2003 00:56									#8
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quote: Incidently, Mike was not the only computer. There was at least one other (remember? They found it at the Hong Kong Bank and Mike was "training" it to fire the catapult?).

Don't forget all of those on Earth... such as the one in Beijing.

	03-06-2003 02:12									#9
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JohnT:

I too loved the book, though it has been awhile.

Don't worry about whether the book can 'stand up to scrutiny,' sometimes it is best to just read and enjoy.

	03-06-2003 04:06									#10
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Argh, I thought I'd be done with this book by the time the *****-and-drool criticism session came around. Just my luck to not finish the only book in the Book Club that I've got in my possession. Anyway, some thoughts so far:

Loony slang is driving me crazy. Yes, it's a textured, logical outgrowth of the language considering the ethnic makeup of the colony but honestly, I simply don't know enough Russian to make sense of it!

I'm curious on why they went to all the expense of setting up the Luna colony in the first place. From the limited descriptions we hear of the Great Powers in the Federated Nations (North American Directorate, PanAfrica, SovUnion, India, Great China. Am I missing any?) these are seriously powerful nations. I mean, the extent and might of Great China (controlling China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, Indonesia, Mongolia, Eastern coast of Russia, Malaysia, Singapore, and northern Australia) is mindboggling. Wouldn't a nation of such size just dump it's convicts (and ethnic cleansed populations) in some barren piece of the Gobi desert? Why would the North American directorate send people up to the moon, no matter how cheap space travel is, when they've got, say, northern Canada to place unwanted individuals? Or, if they are the aggressive violent types, why not just shoot them? Has China and America suddenly gone all soft on killing people?

The Federated Nations also comes off as some monster UN. It's in control of all the offensive armies of the world, has a crack group of Peace Dragoons to enforce its will, and seems to be run by bureaucrats with no democratic mandate.

	03-06-2003 04:15									#11
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Starchild, I believe that if there is a Federated Nations controlling everything that the death penalty is gone as well. And is Great China supposed to still be Communist? I thought it was a democracy in the book.

I dunno... maybe the Luna prison colony was set up so you could just forget about your prisioners. I mean, even if you drop them into the Gobi, there is a chance they could come back (slim, but there). If you put them on the moon, it'd be almost impossible for them to get back (because of physiological changes). And it'd be damned cool .

	03-06-2003 07:19									#12
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If the moon could be used to grow food ( ) and there is a serious population/famine problem, then I think that convict workers could be a logical way to go.

But then, why not ship people who know what they are doing up there - you know, like, erm, FARMERS???

	03-06-2003 07:21									#13
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quote: But then, why not ship people who know what they are doing up there - you know, like, erm, FARMERS???

Why would they ever want to go?

	03-06-2003 07:27									#14
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State, duty, and patriotism. You know, good old fashioned Starship Troopers values.

	03-06-2003 07:29									#15
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Yeah, right

And be forced to live there forever? The physiological changes would mean you were forced to live there forever. Furthermore it is owned by all the states together in the Federated Nations. Why would someone want to go leave Earth forever (with less amenities and women) for a beefed up UN?

	03-06-2003 08:45									#16
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Haven't read it.

Tell you what: toss 250 women in a 500 man prison, wait 10 years, and see if the women take control. Who here thinks that’s going to happen?

When placed in captivity, chimps shift from a male-dominated to a female-dominated society very quickly. I can see it happening.

	03-06-2003 09:35									#17
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We're talking about people here, St. Leo.

	03-06-2003 17:33									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Starchild, I believe that if there is a Federated Nations controlling everything that the death penalty is gone as well. And is Great China supposed to still be Communist? I thought it was a democracy in the book.

It may not be communist but it doesn't sound like a nice, fuzzy democracy either. Remember how Mannie remarked that Dr. Chan, the Great China rep they met with, went on to become Great China's vice-Chairman and then Premier? Certainly doesn't sound like elected positions.

Also recall the hundreds (thousands?) of "volunteers" Great China sent up to Luna when it was creating its empire. Lots of Japanese, Malays, and I'd imagine Indonesians, Thai, and others. I got the strong impression Great China ethically cleansed the non-Chinese parts of itself to make room for a growing population.

	03-06-2003 21:38									#19
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We're talking about people here, St. Leo.

Hey, I don't see you quoting any experiments involving humans.

If you were to do this with baboons, you'd quickly end up with most of the population and all of the females dead. However, behaviourally and structurally humans resemble chimps a lot more than they resemble baboons. Ergo, a female-dominated society is quite plausible.

	04-06-2003 03:25									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild It may not be communist but it doesn't sound like a nice, fuzzy democracy either. Remember how Mannie remarked that Dr. Chan, the Great China rep they met with, went on to become Great China's vice-Chairman and then Premier? Certainly doesn't sound like elected positions. Also recall the hundreds (thousands?) of "volunteers" Great China sent up to Luna when it was creating its empire. Lots of Japanese, Malays, and I'd imagine Indonesians, Thai, and others. I got the strong impression Great China ethically cleansed the non-Chinese parts of itself to make room for a growing population.

Great China came across as the "bad Guy" on Earth, who also turn out to be the most pragmatic (while the "Tough Nut" of North America is prideful and arrogrant)

	04-06-2003 03:27									#21
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I thought North America was the bad guy? Or do you mean if we just look at earth people they'd consider Great China the bad dude?

	04-06-2003 03:36									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I thought North America was the bad guy? Or do you mean if we just look at earth people they'd consider Great China the bad dude?

It was still a democracy.

	04-06-2003 15:02									#23
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I'm getting the impression that Heinlein didn't think much of democracy ("In this age the myth is 'the will of the people'") So it makes sense that democratic North America turns out to be the hardest FN member to break while undemocratic Great China (who everyone seems every so slightly scared of) is able to be the long term, pragmatic one.

Heinlein also lays on the contrast between libertarian Luna and socialised Earth a bit too heavily at times. I mean, did he just copy that "compromise" offered to Mannie and the Prof straight from the USSR's agricultural office?

	04-06-2003 17:56									#24
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I read TMIAHM years ago. I remember it being more of a Libertarian Manifesto than a good sci-fi yarn. The story touched on the usual Heinlein themes:

1) Most people are stupid
2) Libertarianism
3) Sex

The issue of computers is a tough one. You really can't blame him for not seeing the future. I can't think of any books from that era that correctly predicted the way computers would evolve.

I wouldn't exactly say that Heinlein was anti-democratic either. Starship Troopers was filled with the concept of citizenship and the voting rights inherent in it. A non sci-fi Heinlein book, Take Back Your Government details how he thought people should work within the system to create a better government.

	04-06-2003 18:08									#25
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I liked this book. I enjoyed it for the escapism, rather than nit picking over the errors in foresight.

If you're so hot, JohnT, why don't you write a Scifi novel about life 50 years in the future? Let's see how clear your crystal balls are.

	05-06-2003 01:41									#26
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The escapism was fun... especially because of the dialog and the family set ups. It was really cool to actually be reading and seeing a totally new world emerge... not just 'Earth Lite'.

	05-06-2003 01:57									#27
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator I read TMIAHM years ago. I remember it being more of a Libertarian Manifesto than a good sci-fi yarn. The story touched on the usual Heinlein themes: 1) Most people are stupid

Most people ARE stupid.

	05-06-2003 02:21									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild I'm getting the impression that Heinlein didn't think much of democracy

Heinlein, is/was a fascist (was if he's dead). In almost all of his books I've read, he disdains democracy and favors strong government, even this one about a supposed liberatian revolution. Everything is manipulated for everyone's own good by one person and a computer.

	05-06-2003 02:43									#29
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Most people ARE stupid.

What's the point of being intelligent when you have no say in the government?

	05-06-2003 05:11									#30
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"was if he's dead"

He's been dead for at least a decade.

"If you're so hot, JohnT, why don't you write a Scifi novel about life 50 years in the future? Let's see how clear your crystal balls are."

Chill out, Cruddy, this is a discussion not a debate.

If I were to write a sci-fi novel based 50 years in the future, I'd probably do as craptacular a job as most near-fiction sci-fi. That's irrelevant to the issue here, which is that the Revolution depended upon that a very obvious trend* in human society (one that has been in effect, well, throughout human history) wouldn't, for some reason, apply to computers.

*Technological diffusion from the inventor to the "common man." It started with fire, and never really stopped unless by force.