02-06-2003 20:58									#1
	How do you beat the AI's navy? Remove this text

I'm finding that I can crush the AI in land battles, but at the sea they just own me. My ships die so fast, and it seems like they are just non-stop pumping them out. Unless I have 3-4 docks on infinity build of heavy warships and fireships, they will overwhelm me at the sea easily. And this is just on Moderate.

I have to have dozens and dozens of ships just so I can sail across the sea. But then that really cuts into my ground force and makes it hard to invade their island. How do you beat the AI's fleet?

	02-06-2003 22:36									#2
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Intense naval warfare is eventually won by destroying their production capacity. You HAVE to knock out their docks unless you can reduce their building in some other way (timber or oil production).

For this reason (after only 2 games with this environment), invasion seems to be delayed until bombers arrive. With aircraft you also can FIND their docks as they are rebuilt.

I have yet to try a sneak invasion or use of explorers/commandos to raze their docks. In both my games with "East meets West" large maps (3 or 4 opponents) I had an obliging next-door neighbor who was behind in development that allowed me a landing on their continent virtually unopposed.

	02-06-2003 23:42									#3
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the key to fleets are the same thing to land battles, you need a diverse fleet.

every ship has a strength, and a counter. the AI will have pretty much a diverse fleet, meannig they have a counter for everything, but also have all the weaknesses. you just have to identify what ships to attack with what ships, and keep control groups of specialized ships.

also, and this works better in MP games, build a city on their island if possible. it's hillarious, and bypasses the navy for a while (until they realize they can bombard the hell out of you).

	03-06-2003 07:46									#4
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Heh, once you win a major naval battle in the later ages don't destroy his docks. Plant subs by them and see how long it takes him to notice. Use your other ships to scout out for new docks being built and to harass him.

	03-06-2003 08:01									#5
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I don't think that's a good strategy. The moment he builds a light ship he will not only spot your sub but sink it as well. Destroy his docks, then you don't have to worry about a naval counterattack and you can bombard his buildings at will.

	03-06-2003 08:39									#6
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I didn't mean one sub, you've got to have several to actually block it. But it'll get maybe one attack off before it goes down from fire. 4-6 subs will take anything down quick. And this way hes wasting resources while keeping an eye on the docks he has left. Worst case scenario is he wastes resources finding other ways to kill the subs while your ships have free reign. If you start to lose subs you still have the option of kill the docks.

	03-06-2003 09:01									#7
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I think I'd only really do that in multiplayer. You don't really get the same satisfaction from toying with AIs as you do toying with buddies.

Speaking of which one of my pals really, really stinks. He patrols the seas with task forces of 1 ship. He set his rally point to the middle of the ocean; I destroyed his fleet and parked my armada there. For the rest of the game he kept building ships, but didn't move the rally point so they'd sail out there one at a time and get blasted out of the water. Afterwards I asked him what the heck he was doing, and he blamed it on "the stupid rally point".

But the AI is just merciless with its navy. I would never allow them to keep a shipyard; I would destroy any that I ever find. I wouldn't trust my subs to be able to hold out; I just know that they'd find some way to clear it out. If they had a couple fighters do an air mission out there, wouldn't they see the subs and sink them, with the subs unable to do anything? Then they could use that dock to rebuild their fleet and retake control of the seas, which would mean a naval superiority battle all over again.

	03-06-2003 22:08									#8
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If you have the tech, build aircraft carriers. They come with 7 aircraft right after they are built. They can sink ships at far range and do wonders on land battles too. I always play sea maps and the AI fights well nearly everytime. There are usually many AI ships all over. You just have to fight hard just like you are playing online. Many times I get outnumbered and have to start building land based air to help fight against ships in the sea.

	03-06-2003 22:51									#9
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It was killing me first, too. I could beat land Moderate AI, but got owned at sea, and delayed the big invasions till the Modern age.

Now, I play on Tough, and beat the Ai on any map. Naval ones aren't easy, but still... Bomb vessels are good for destroying their Docks and coastline improvements, remember those.

	03-06-2003 23:24									#10
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Bomb vessels have worked wonders for me on maps that have water but aren't necessarily sea maps, like Warring States or Mediterannean. The opposing navy, whether AI or human, is usually not as big on those maps since navy isn't strictly necessary. So you can gain naval dominance much more easily, then use bomb vessels to take out buildings and cities near the coast. And nothing can stop you!!! I've won games this way.

	04-06-2003 03:26									#11
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quote: Originally posted by albiedamned Bomb vessels have worked wonders for me on maps that have water but aren't necessarily sea maps, like Warring States or Mediterannean. The opposing navy, whether AI or human, is usually not as big on those maps since navy isn't strictly necessary. So you can gain naval dominance much more easily, then use bomb vessels to take out buildings and cities near the coast. And nothing can stop you!!! I've won games this way.

You are right! I sometimes build about 3 docks and rally point all three near an enemy coast. I build several bomb vessels in each dock. When they are built they travel straight to the rally point and begin to open fire on buildings and ground targets. I did find out though many times the AI will respond to this by bringing other ships to fight your bomb vessels. Sometimes it will use artillery and planes too. I like just doing it quickly as sort of a surprise attack, bust them up and get out.

	04-06-2003 03:55									#12
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Yes, bomb vessels are weak to pretty much everything, so you have to make sure you achieve naval dominance first. And yes, coastal artillery is a threat to your ships including bomb vessels, but as long as you pay attention, it's easy to overcome. Just move your ships on to another target. The artillery takes time to pack, and then is slow to move. Your ships can move around to new targets much faster than the artillery as long as you notice the fact that they are being targetted by artillery in time to move them.

	04-06-2003 22:42									#13
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Without destroying the AI's docks on a regular basis I find it very tough to keep sea dominance. The fire-ships will typically massacre my ships if I turn my attention away from my fleet.

But the nice thing about fire-ships is that it works both ways. So if you find yourself getting pounded by the AI's navy send him a few fire-ships and that oughta take care of it.

	04-06-2003 22:57									#14
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FireShips are a very double-edged sword. True, they absolutely kill heavy ships, but are helpless against light ships. I love how BHG balanced sea combat, making all types of ships necessary. Still, I usually find myself building mostly Light ships, because the AI seems to employ them Fireships a lot. And, as soon as you can, take Bomb vessels and go for his Docks.

	04-06-2003 23:34									#15
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The problem with the "wait" strategy is if you're playing a game where you've limited the age advancement. I wanted to play until the enlightenment age, on an island map (sort of a caribbean type fight against Spain and France, with myself as the English). Ship-to ship combat could have been handled better, I think- more than any other part of the game, it's paper-rock-scissors, though some tactics work better than others. Create a screen of light ships in front of your heavy ships, flank the enemy with fire ships/subs.

Ship combat is too similar to the land combat, for my tastes, and fire ships are way too powerful against heavy ships. It would have been cool to see some new mechanic for sea combat, like wind or boarding or something.

	04-06-2003 23:46									#16
	MP navy combat Support Apolyton

In multiplayer games, my AI allies usually send their navy out to destroy their docks, but I usually have to build a backup navy in case the enemy navy starts killing one of my coastal cities.

	05-06-2003 01:41									#17
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Well, yeah, ship combat is more rock-papers-scissors, but in real life too, it's much less tactical than land combat.

I agree though that Fireships may be need to weakened just a bit... they absolutely blow a heavy ship up. Also, Submarines destroy heavy ships immediately.

	05-06-2003 02:25									#18
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Well, naval combat is much more about maneuvering into a better position than your enemy- something RoN can't possibly hope to do without becoming much more complex. Naval tactics are very complex, I'd say, but more on an individual ship level than any formation. Sure, it would be cool to see battle lines formed by frigates, or see triremes crash into each other, but it's all just too complex for a game like this.

What would be cool is for some ships to have a special ability- like the trireme could have a "ram" ability that would cause massive damage to both ships, or frigate could have a "board" ability to take over enemy ships, subs could have nuclear missiles, destroyers could have mines or something... just something to spice up the sea combat a little

	05-06-2003 02:31									#19
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I'm sure some naval officer will be incensed by that, but I suppose the primary difference is the relative lack of terrain. In some ways naval combat is more like a small unit land action, with each ship the equivalent of one soldier (or one unit) on land.

However, throw in fixed-wing aircraft and helos, then add submarines and thermoclines and seamounts, and you have a complex 3D combat environment with ample scope for tactics...all of which leads up to tonight when I invade Japan on Moderate in CTW, starting Industrial Age, for my first major RoN sea battle.

I had a disappointing minor sea battle back when carracks, corvettes, and bomb ships ruled the seas. I was defending Greenland against the Aztecs, with territory strength of about 2 and no army. I put up a few towers and one castle for initial skimpy coverage of my coast, got four cities up and running, bulked up my land forces to meet the expected invasion, then toughened my Western Wall to 3 castles and 9 towers, or some such. I built one dock for recon and to catch a few fish, then sent out a couple of corvettes for the recon. Sank a couple of his small ships and outran his big ships. Added a few more corvettes...then built a second dock and two substantial fleets (two sets with 6 carracks and 6 corvettes each). Destroyed everything the AI sent at me, and cycled damaged ships through the docks for repair.

Since I got bored waiting for the AI to invade me, I decided to invade the AI. This was made easier because my Romans had a national border that included a peninsula on the Aztec mainland. So I sent 4 villies and my army across, with one fleet on each side forming a protected corridor. Built a castle, built a city, built one each of barracks, stable, and siege, then rolled up the AI.

I had never seen a bomb ship until the AI started shelling my castle. Silly AI taught me about the bomb ships, so then I built a bunch of them and destroyed every military building near the coast. I had complete naval dominance and a boringly unopposed landing.

Likely that will change tonight... -- HtL

	05-06-2003 15:46									#20
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Now, I've played a series of games against Tough AI on maps such as Easy Meets West, and my victories have been because of naval domination. Try to achieve naval domination, upgrading ships, in Medieval build them bomb vessels, go after his docks. Then, go with a massive landing army, while keeping the battles close to coast, if possible, to get support from ships. Also, make a "clean sweep" of certain area near the cost, destroying enemy military buildings there, so that I can land there with more safety.