04-06-2003 08:16									#1
	What makes teams more hated? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Imran and I were having a discussion about Sosa and then we got into a debate about what makes teams more hated - winning or money. So, which do you think makes a team more hated?

Here is a transcript, by the way....
[21:39] Apoc: heya, hear about Sosa?
[21:39] Imran: Yep... corked
[21:40] Apoc: I'm happy, I never liked the Cubs
[21:40] Imran: It won't matter anyway
[21:40] Apoc: I always felt sorry for the White Sox
[21:41] Imran: Eh... they bring lack of success upon themselves
[21:41] Apoc: it's just that the Sox have done better than the Cubs yet get little fan support
[21:41] Apoc: and everyone in Indiana also likes the Cubs, but not the Sox
[21:42] Imran: Because the Sox haven't embraced Chicago... or did so too late
[21:42] Imran: After all, the Cubs have been bigger winners... even though they haven't won since 1908
[21:42] Apoc: Chicago needs to be more like Houston...if you do well, you get support...if you don't do well, you don't get support
[21:42] Imran: Naw... ya gotta love the Cubbies!
[21:43] Imran: I love the Cubbies, and I've never been to Chicago
[21:43] Apoc: I never liked them
[21:43] Imran: Yes, I realized.. you are wierd
[21:43] Imran: It's the same reason you have to like the Red Sox!
[21:43] Apoc: even when I lived in the Dallas area and didn't care at all about the NL
[21:44] Apoc: the reason you are supposed to like the Red Sox is because you are supposed to hate the Yankees
[21:45] Imran: No.. because they, like the Cubs, haven't won in so long
[21:45] Apoc: well....
[21:45] Apoc: the Rangers, Astros, and Mariners have never won the big game
[21:45] Imran: Yeah, but they were founded well after 1908 or 1912
[21:46] Apoc: yeah, but they don't even have a title while the other teams do
[21:46] Imran: When they get close to the 100 year mark, you'll see people pulling for them too
[21:46] Imran: Because they are new... who cares about them
[21:47] Imran: In 1993, more people wanted the New York Rangers to win, because they hadn't since 1940... even if Vancouver had never won one either.
[21:47] Apoc: well, that's rude
[21:48] Imran: No it isn't!
[21:48] Apoc: yeah it is
[21:48] Imran: It's rude to root for a team that has much fewer years and hasn't won than one that has won but 80 years ago!
[21:49] Imran: Wow... you haven't won in 30 years... the fans in Chicago have been struggling for almost a 100!
[21:49] Apoc: when the Cubs won back at the turn of the century, they weren't as old as the Rangers and Astros are now
[21:49] Imran: Yeah, and they weren't as beloved as they are now
[21:49] Imran: If they kept winning people would hate them (as they do the Yankees)
[21:49] Apoc: doesn't really matter anyway
[21:50] Apoc: people hate the Yankees because of the money they have
[21:50] Imran: Well, when the Cubs win, or the BoSox, it'll be a big party
[21:50] Imran: Oh, Apoc... so naive
[21:50] Imran: People hate teams that constantly win
[21:50] Imran: In every sport
[21:50] Apoc: people don't hate Tiger Woods
[21:51] Imran: He's not a team
[21:51] Imran: He doesn't come from an area
[21:51] Apoc: what about the Miami Dolphins...they're good every year
[21:51] Imran: NO THEY AREN'T!
[21:51] Imran: They've missed the playoffs for like two years going
[21:51] Apoc: barely missed the playoffs
[21:51] Imran: When the Rams were good, people hated them... still do
[21:52] Imran: Barely?! They still missed... you aren't a good team in the NFL if you don't make the Playoffs
[21:52] Imran: When the Bulls won a bunch in the 90s, people hated them
[21:52] Apoc: they missed largely because Jay was injured
[21:52] Apoc: I didn't notice any hate...I remember people buying a lot of Bulls clothing
[21:52] Imran: Yeah.. but they wouldn't have got sniffing distance of the SuperBowl because they ain't that good
[21:52] Apoc: not just Jordon stuf either
[21:53] Imran: A lot of people hated them too...
[21:53] Imran: You do realize that Yankees clothing is the most selling baseball stuff, right?
[21:53] Apoc: New York is also very large and many people move to various places from New York
[21:53] Imran: Doesn't matter... when you win, you become loved and hated.
[21:53] Imran: Another example: early 90s cowboys
[21:54] Apoc: early 90s Cowboys - America's Team
[21:54] Imran: And America's Most HATED Team
[21:54] Imran: I actually don't remember anyone outside Texas that liked them during those years.
[21:54] Imran: (well, ok a slight exaggeration, but only slight)
[21:56] Apoc: that was before the salary cap went into full effect anyway
[21:56] Apoc: so it was partially the money
[21:56] Imran: So? Doesn't matter
[21:56] Imran: NOOOOO
[21:56] Imran: San Fran had way more money
[21:56] Apoc: and people didn't like San Fran either
[21:57] Imran: They were more liked than the Cowboys... by far
[21:57] Imran: Hell, in Jersey, you'd see people wearing 49ers jerseys\
[21:57] Apoc: they are also from California and people think California is cool
[21:57] Imran: Bull... people despised the Cowboys (still do)
[21:58] Imran: I personally can't stand them and love when they lose.. HAHAH
[21:58] Apoc: I don't like them either
[21:58] Apoc: but that's also largely because of the owner
[21:58] Imran: And their players
[21:58] Imran: Irvin - *****, Aikman - ass, Smith - moron
[21:59] Apoc: yeah, but many of the players were liked...Irvin got TV deals
[21:59] Apoc: and Smith is a nice guy and many people like him for that
[21:59] Imran: Irvin was hated... remember when they booed him in Philly? Crack hore
[21:59] Apoc: yes, I know he was booed
[21:59] Imran: Smith benefited from the best line in the NFL ever... he didn't have half the talent that Barry Sandars had
[22:02] Apoc: you are changing the subject
[22:02] Imran: No I'm not
[22:02] Imran: I'm showing you that money means ****
[22:02] Imran: People hate the teams that win a lot
[22:02] Apoc: I know it doesn't mean much in terms of talent
[22:02] Apoc: why don't people like the LA Dodgers then?
[22:02] Apoc: hmmm?
[22:03] Imran: Who doesn't like the Dodgers?
[22:03] Imran: Never heard of that
[22:03] Apoc: a lot of people
[22:03] Imran: I've yet to meet one person that doesn't like the Orioles
[22:03] Apoc: the Orioles are different though
[22:03] Imran: No they aren't
[22:03] Apoc: they compete against the Yankees
[22:03] Imran: Bullshit... if compete means lose
[22:04] Apoc: I'm just saying they are the lesser of two evils
[22:04] Apoc: LA signed Kevin Brown
[22:04] Imran: LA isn't hated except by Giant fans
[22:04] Apoc: and and Brown wasn't even that good
[22:04] Imran: Yeah, and? Their payroll now isn't that high if you look at the stats
[22:04] Apoc: they aren't hated as much now
[22:04] Imran: The Yankees, then Boston, then the Mets, then Baltimore and few other teams
[22:04] Imran: Oh, they were never hated
[22:05] Apoc: doesn't really matter
[22:05] Apoc: this isn't going anywhere
[22:07] Apoc: [22:05] Apoc: hey, I'm having conversation with another baseball fan at the moment
[22:05] Apoc: we are arguing about which makes a team more hated - money or winning
[22:07] cubsfan: definetely money! look at the yankees, they are hated cuz they bought all their player, tey are spending exhobitent amounts of money, infact the are the only team that has to pay the luxury tax this year, if the cubs kept wining i'd doubt there would be much hatred
[22:07] Apoc: LA Dodgers have been hated in the past, right?
[22:07] cubsfan: yeah and still are
[22:08] Imran: He's totally wrong
[22:08] Imran: No one hates the Dogers
[22:08] Imran: They may have in the 80s... when they WON
[22:08] Apoc: he hates them and he's a Cubbie fan
[22:08] Imran: Good for him
[22:09] Imran: I hate the Rockies, what does that prove?
[22:09] Apoc: maybe they don't hate them in the east coast where you are because hatred there is all focused on Yankees and Braves
[22:09] Imran: And the Braves are hated cause they win... not because they spend a lot
[22:09] Apoc: many would guess you hate the Rockies because Colorado is an insane place to play baseball
[22:10] Apoc: Braves rarely win the World Series
[22:10] Imran: That and I dislike some of their players
[22:10] Imran: But they've always won their division
[22:10] Imran: Allways in the playoffs
[22:10] Apoc: and many of their first round wins have been against the Astros and the Astros such ass in the playoffs
[22:10] Apoc: *suck ass
[22:10] Imran: But they've done it
[22:10] Apoc: but it's the Astros
[22:10] Apoc: want to make a thread on Poly about this?
[22:11] Imran: You can if you want.
[22:11] Apoc: is it alright if I post this conversation?
[22:11] Imran: Sure...
[22:11] Apoc: I'm just saying this convo really isn't going anywhere
[22:12] Imran: Yeah... but if money dictated hate the Orioles would be hated as well. It isn't just based on money, it's on winning and where you are

	04-06-2003 08:20									#2
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My example... the 2003 NY Rangers. Now, the Rangers were hated in the early 90s when they were good and threatened. Now, they outspend everyone, yet people laugh at them.

If money made people hate teams, the Orioles would be hated, but who hates them?

Winning makes teams hated, and those that win make a lot of money, so they are hated even more.

	04-06-2003 08:42									#3
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It's arrogance that brings out hatred of teams. Money and winning are merely factors that bring out team arrogance, such as in the case of the Yankees. But it is possible for even current doormats, such as the Cowboys, to be hated.

	04-06-2003 08:42									#4
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Winning.

	04-06-2003 08:44									#5
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quote: But it is possible for even current doormats, such as the Cowboys, to be hated.

True... but I'd argue that in this doormat era of the 'Boys it is harder to hate them than it was during the early 90s... and less people do (how do you really hate Chad Hutchinson?).

	04-06-2003 09:12									#6
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arrogance for me.

That is why I hated the St. Louis Rams the past few years. Even after the Patriots beat them in the superbowl they would not concede the Patriots were the better team. They did not even concede that the Patriots played better. Every time they lost they blamed it on themselves. They blamed it on turnovers. The fact is defense causes turnovers. And I knew the Patriots would come up with a defensive scheme to win that superbowl. I was 99.9% sure they would win the superbowl. So I credit the defense of the Patriots for the turnovers, not the Rams offense.

Money is a part of it though. That is why I hate the Yankees in baseball. I get sick of them having so much money and buying their way to the world series. Although the last 2 years changed that with the D backs and the Angels beating them. But after the Florida team bought their way to the world series, and the Yankess did it every year, I was starting to get disgusted.

And I still hate the Yankess even if they aren't the best team in baseball anymore.

	04-06-2003 09:14									#7
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Three words: New. York. Yankees.

	04-06-2003 09:15									#8
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as for the Cowboys, I still kind of hate them, but not as much as I did in the 90's. Although I've always liked Emitt Smith.

What really pissed me off is that dumbass John Madden saying Troy Aikmen was the best player in football. That is why I hate John Madden. Aikmen was never the best player in football. If anybody it was Emitt Smith or Barry Sanders (he said this in the mid 90's)

The Cowboys I really only hate because people call them america's team. They aren't my team. I hate their owner as well. These owners think they can be coaches . For the same reason I hate the redskins owner as well, and dislike the redskins lately.

Last edited by Dis on 04-06-2003 at 09:21

	04-06-2003 09:18									#9
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"Yeah... but if money dictated hate the Orioles would be hated as well. It isn't just based on money, it's on winning and where you are"

Precisely. Oh, fans use the money as a means to fuel the hate, but honestly: those who hate the Yankees don't do so because they lose a lot.

	04-06-2003 09:21									#10
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quote: What really pissed me off is that dumbass John Madden saying Troy Aikmen was the best player in football.

Madden is sooo senile . He's losing it fast.

--

Oh, and I forgot about arrogance... but I guess that comes (as well as money) with winning. After all, if you are arrogant, and you don't win, you are laughed at.

	04-06-2003 09:22									#11
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Being Manchester United. Every true football fan hates their guts.

In footy is basically this:

1) They win because they are rich and can afford to buy up all the best players.

2) Their fans wouldn't be there if they weren't winning (hence the immortal terrace chant, "Where were you when you were sh*t?"). To show you how lame this is, Agathon has fervently supported Newcastle for 24 years during which they've won nothing. Agathon's Uncle Billy has supported them since before they last won the league in 1928.

3) Their fans are mostly middle class yuppies who can't sing properly and don't chant rude slogans about the opposition.

4) They get preferential treatment from the referees.

5) The news media rave on about them all the time, even if they're sh*t. Whereas even if your unglamourous team is doing really well they might get three lines.

6) If your team thrashes them 5-0 in a complete display of football including a humiliating chip of the keeper by the centre half; journalists spend their whole column on how bad they played and not on how well your team played.

7) Every other team in the league sings a song called "Stand up if you hate Man U".

Down with the red scum.

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	04-06-2003 09:24									#12
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Agathon just proved my point. Manny U is hated because they win... the money is just used to fuel the hate.

And why is it never "They're rich because they win?"

	04-06-2003 09:25									#13
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quote: Agathon has fervently supported Newcastle for 24 years during which they've won nothing.

Newcastle

Though I'll confess that I only liked them because of Alan Shearer .

	04-06-2003 09:27									#14
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quote: And why is it never "They're rich because they win?"

Because thinking that way makes you angrier .

	04-06-2003 09:39									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Agathon has fervently supported Newcastle for 24 years during which they've won nothing. Newcastle Though I'll confess that I only liked them because of Alan Shearer .

I totally forgive you for anything bad you've ever said about me. You have impeccable taste in footballers.

	04-06-2003 09:41									#16
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Likewise .

I don't like Arsenal either .

Unfortunetly, ManU has on its team a player I really like: Ryan Giggs. It just diminishes the guy.

	04-06-2003 09:49									#17
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I find Giggs a bit frustrating. He does nothing for ages and then out of nowhere comes up with a jaw-dropping piece of brilliance. I think a move would do him good but Taggart (my name for Ferguson - after a Brit TV character) won't let him go.

I've got a mate who's an Arsenal nut, so I have to bite my tongue when he's around. I have to admit though Arsenal and Man U come after Sunderland in my hate stakes (this year was a good one, we made the CL and they got relegated with the worst season in the history of the PL ).

I'm going over to England in August. My uncle has season tickets at SJP (which is a lot nicer now than it was last time I went, when Newcastle were playing in the second division). I'll have to post a pic if I manage to makeit to a game.

	04-06-2003 09:52									#18
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Wutang!

That'd be nice... pictures of a true soccer/football pitch .

Ah, Sunderland... is Reyna still on that team? I like him (good US captain), so hopefully someone else buys him.

And I confess, another reason I like Giggs is because he plays for Wales... I mean, who does that?

	04-06-2003 09:56									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Wutang! That'd be nice... pictures of a true soccer/football pitch .

I'll try to make it. It currently depends on the whims of the league scheduler.

quote: Ah, Sunderland... is Reyna still on that team? I like him (good US captain), so hopefully someone else buys him.

I think he's gone. He's far too good to play for them.

quote: And I confess, another reason I like Giggs is because he plays for Wales... I mean, who does that?

Craig Bellamy - Shearer's current partner in crime. Good player too.

	04-06-2003 09:58									#20
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Both of them are poor saps .

And I remember the name Bellamy... from when I played the demo of CM 01/02 or CM4 .

	04-06-2003 09:59									#21
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Logos. It's all about the Logos.

I mean, how many people do you know that are fans of the Denver Nuggets? How about the Los Angeles Clippers? Chicago Cubs? Who the **** is afraid of a cub? What is this, the scouts? Montreal Canadians...hah...Canadians...as if anyone could respect a Canadian...Cleveland Browns...Browns? A ****ing colour? Give me a break.

People support teams that have respectable names, names that instill fear in their opponents. Strong logos and a powerful name is all that is required to gain support.

	04-06-2003 10:16									#22
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YANKEES RULE!



Certainly it is winning. Knicks fans hated the Bulls, specialy since the Knicks were always second banana. I think plenty of people hate the Lakers now.

Also, it has to be winning championships. The Athletics may win games, but they haven;t won a Series is a decade plus so it is hard to hate them.

	04-06-2003 10:18									#23
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I have to root for Newcastle because I like their beer . Although I have no idea what the team is or what sport it is- although I figure it is football (soccer)

	04-06-2003 18:16									#24
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People hate winners. Unless, of course, the winners are your team.

	04-06-2003 18:25									#25
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I hated Man Utd when they wern't winning anything just as much as I hate them now

	04-06-2003 18:43									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Being Manchester United. Every true football fan hates their guts. In footy is basically this: 1) They win because they are rich and can afford to buy up all the best players. 2) Their fans wouldn't be there if they weren't winning (hence the immortal terrace chant, "Where were you when you were sh*t?"). To show you how lame this is, Agathon has fervently supported Newcastle for 24 years during which they've won nothing. Agathon's Uncle Billy has supported them since before they last won the league in 1928. 3) Their fans are mostly middle class yuppies who can't sing properly and don't chant rude slogans about the opposition. 4) They get preferential treatment from the referees. 5) The news media rave on about them all the time, even if they're sh*t. Whereas even if your unglamourous team is doing really well they might get three lines. 6) If your team thrashes them 5-0 in a complete display of football including a humiliating chip of the keeper by the centre half; journalists spend their whole column on how bad they played and not on how well your team played. 7) Every other team in the league sings a song called "Stand up if you hate Man U". Down with the red scum.

Man Utd

Actually I get the impression Arsenal are the most arrogant team right now; they finish second and still declare themselves the best team in the league.

	04-06-2003 19:58									#27
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It's about the winning mostly. The money is part of it, but usually money & winning go hand-in-hand. Nobody hates the Angels right now, but if they rip off a streak of 3 WS wins in a row, they will become hated (they will also make more and more money, and their payroll will increase, and people will ***** about how they "buy their players" as if that's not what every team does in a professional sport).

I think there is also a basic division among sports fans:

Some who think that it's noble to suffer though decades of failure & misery so you can say you're a "real fan."

Some who appreciate quality play & success, and who find the suffering of "real fans" amusing.

If the ownership & management of "my" team sucks ass and can't field a decent team, screw 'em! I'm not gonna support that! Begone, fools! And bring in somebody who knows what they're doing.

JohnT.

Remember when Seattle was a "small market" team with no hope? Then good management turns the team around & wrangles a new ballpark, and suddenly they're one of the top earners. So now they're "large market?" Anyone who says that Pittsburgh or Philly are "small markets" should be shot for stupidity. Why does no one evaluate the "market potential" of an area?

Let's Go Yankees!

-Arrian

p.s. Having said all of that, NY is still a huge market, and probably should have a 3rd team. That would do a helluva lot more than "revenue sharing" or a "luxury tax"

	04-06-2003 20:01									#28
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I don't like Arsenal much either.

I do think that saying Arsenal are the best team whilst unwise is not neccesarily untrue. In 10 years time when looking back at the eraly part of this decade people will say Arsenal were the best team.(although closely followed by Man U)

	04-06-2003 20:26									#29
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You have amazing foresight.

	04-06-2003 20:27									#30
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United would walk the FA Cup if we played to get knocked out by quarter final stages of the European Cup like Arsenal do.