06-06-2003 01:39									#91
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Well we did not react because we think that everyone knows where our iron is. So why should we feel threadned.
We are not.

What the other Nations do with their iron is not our concern.

Beeing an isolationist is not so easy if you are literaly in the middle of everything....

As i see it we speak seldom to everyone but if we have to say something we do it. I think we have relatively good relations with every other nation more or les....

	06-06-2003 01:45									#92
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quote: Let me tell you, the differences in word usage are considerable when compared to trying to be an ambassador.

They don't have to be. I've been at least a BIT involved with GoW diplomacy with all the teams. I can tell you Diplomacy with each team IS definately different.

RP often does give you the feeling that anything you may say will be picked apart and searched for hidden meaning. Whether they do or not, that is the feeling you get from them at times.

ND tends to be rather direct and to the point.

I have known for a long time GS would do everything 'by the book'. This can come off as cold and isolationist, a bit stand-offish (THERE'S a great 'word') but always very professional, almost like a super productive AI .

The true job of a diplomat is to understand these differences, adjust for each of the teams and to not make assumptions by the way things neccessarily appear at first, or how the different teams come off and DEFINATELY not to take offense quickly.

Course, this is also why I have largely left GoW diplomacy, cause I suck at all of that.

	06-06-2003 02:24									#93
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quote: have known for a long time GS would do everything 'by the book'. This can come off as cold and isolationist, a bit stand-offish (THERE'S a great 'word') but always very professional, almost like a super productive AI

Hmm, that makes sense. I guess maybe we can come off that way. Food for thought (for us). Thanks.

It seems that when we try to spice things up, though, it either gets ignored or it blows up in our faces. So I for one figured the best thing we could do was shut up.

Another thing: this is a PBEM game, and as such it moves quite slowly - even if all the teams are really fast with their turns (which hasn't been the case for us, sorry, but war will do that). Therefore, 5 turns can feel like an eternity. Let's take the example of our attempted trade with RP:

We offered Feudalism
RP declined, and then went with a better offer from GoW

Some turns pass. No contact from us. Is that us being isolationist/standoffish? Or is it because in reality nothing has changed in-game because only a few turns have passed. Perhaps we don't have any other deals to peddle?

-Arrian

	06-06-2003 02:47									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian It seems that when we try to spice things up, though, it either gets ignored or it blows up in our faces. So I for one figured the best thing we could do was shut up.

I was in no way suggesting you guys need to change. Personally I have found all the stories and things comming out of GS to be very enjoyable.

I think part of that feeling comes from the nature of your diplomatic department. Where some teams have people empowered to make decisions on the spot, GS will discuss everything as a group. This has the advantage of avoiding a mistake or a flared temper as has happened in certain situations here already, but it can tend to give the impression of being 'isolationist' or less personal as well.

Not saying this is 'bad', nor is it neccessarily how it actually IS, just stating that's how it can be percieved.

I am sure GoW is seen as a greedy bunch of SOB's willing to sell anything for the right price as well. (Glory of Whoring?) This as well has both advantages and disadvantages associated with it.


It has been an interesting study in group dynamics, this game...allot can be learned about playing PBEMs through watching this Demo Game

	06-06-2003 04:03									#95
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quote: It has been an interesting study in group dynamics, this game...allot can be learned about playing PBEMs through watching this Demo Game

Hmm...
Perhaps this where I can find subje.. ah, participants for my final paper in psychology- that's 2 years from now, but I can start collecting the data.

Indeed, I have thought much about the group dynamics in this game, and it just keeps suprising me (and also many others, I believe) every time. The one important thing I can say, and that was said many times before is that people, us included, don't make rational (or "adaptive") decisions usually. Especially when you look at this game we're playing, that has a rigid set of rules- which certainly makes some decisions wrong or right.

This is certainly sounds pasimistic, and it is- there is just too much
uncertainty in relations with people...

The only hope we have is to keep communicating, expressing emotions to each other, even if that means we're angry, irritated, outraged or sympathetic. This is what builds us as a community of players in this game. It enriches the playing experiences, bringing it closer to "wholeness".

That's why, in addition to being sad and/or upset about some of the things said here, I am pleased we have this opportunity to share some of our (not GS, but the players of all teams) views on what was going on in this game. I personally feel like I've learned something (don't know exactly what, but something has changed, that's for sure) from looking at what people wrote, and I feel like others have as well.

	06-06-2003 04:04									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Wow, I wasn't sure of it before, but this thread makes it very clear to me how many members of Roleplay have an axe to grind with GS. I cannot for the life of me figure out what the hell we did to you guys, though. We were attacked out of the blue. We scrambled to put together a military (we had almost none when Vox attacked). We slowly turned the tide and now have managed to cut their iron. Is it really so crazy of us to ask the rest of the world not to sell iron to Vox (especially since I doubt they can afford to pay you much for it)? Furthermore, it should go without saying that if a team does sell (or gift) iron to Vox, they know full well that they are assisting Vox in killing our troops. Therefore, of COURSE we won't take kindly to that. That's an overt act that harms us. Quite unlike the supposed transgressions of GS on the rest of the world. We've done nothing to you. Not a damned thing. All we want is to be left alone to deal with Vox 1 on 1. I fail to see what is so unreasonable about that. -Arrian

I don't have an Axe to grind with GS, but I do have an issue with a "Minister of Economics", i.e. a member of GS's higher government, making a post that has implied threats to everyone else. If GS wants to talk to each of the nations, in a civilized and normal manner, then they need to have their diplomats talk things out. But to make this kind of posting (without even making the effort to contact the others about this) is tantamount to slapping all of the other teams and accuseing them of conpireing against GS.

E_T

	06-06-2003 05:01									#97
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O.k., after reading the later postings, I'm calming down now (somewhat...).

I do agree that having regular contacts with the other teams has been very benificial to understanding their position on many other things. When a team doesn't communicate as often, It leaves an impression that your not needed or wanted. This then leads to further conjuectures and suppositions as to what the short term goals of that team is and what they are planning to do to you. This leads to further fears and knee jerk reactions and those can start you on a path to someplace that we don't want to really go to.

It's a visious cycle that we in RP have tried to keep down with regular contacts with the other teams. And yes, sometimes RL keeps a diplomat to a particular team from doing their job fairly quickly. But we all know how that can make things "interesting", too.

E_T

	06-06-2003 05:04									#98
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO ... what I really wanted to say was that we expected for a long time (and we have numerous clues, no proof) that Vox did not come up with the idea of attacking us by themselves, or at least were helped in their conviction by other teams....

	06-06-2003 05:27									#99
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RP and GS's security must be totally obliterated with this thread.

Looking forward to see many more of these in the future...

	06-06-2003 05:45									#100
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well, Beta, at least you can guess at a few of our clues

E_T: you may be right in that more communication would make it easier diplomatically. However, don't make the same mistake I admitted to previously: it's not because another team does not have the same diplomatic culture as your own that they don't like you, or are trying to somehow cross you. We are no roleplayers (well, certainly I am not), we don't talk just for the sake of talking. I did my best in keeping a relation going, and to my knowledge I did not break too many threads. Apparantly, your ambassador to us is Ninot, but I heared from him once, even if I send him more then a couple messages... If there is any blame to be found, it is a common thing, and not something solely the responsibility of us (or me personally).

Then again, I do not have the time to spend more on chitchat. I like pretending to be a diplomat in our team, but only because in general, there are only a few people with active diplo roles, less people then we ideally could use. And in a state of war, most of our attention goes to winning the war, and not chatting to other teams. Maybe Vox would not be in such a predicament if they focused more on in-game things, instead of chatting with Togas
(BTW, just in case somebody wants to pick that apart as well: that last sentence was my poor attempt at humor, and should not be read as if it is the whole of GS's opinion that Togas made a full job out of talking to Voxians for the past 2 months )

UnO: on "like a super productive AI" You may hit the nail on the head here... maybe we're still treating this game as too much of a SP game in which by coincidence some human teams have ended up in. Our focus in the private forum certainly is on in-game issues, and even if there has been talk enough of wanting to change that, somehow we always keep stuck there.

Talk, analysis, more talk, then a plan to try to circumvent any unpredictable human nature by use of some obscure civ mechanic which will lead to us surviving even if diplo fails. The strange thing is, of course, that with so much effort in trying to rule out the diplo part of the game, we grow even more isolationists... but who can blame us for being paranoid seeing as everything we say is mostly used against us.

DeepO

	06-06-2003 05:47									#101
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Vox doesn't treat this as a SP game at all

in fact I would bet that our forums show our teams to be exact opposites

Jon Miller

	06-06-2003 05:52									#102
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Yes, I can imagine that... it was what I wanted to say. A difference in culture, again, and in our current relation, our approach seems to work best. But there have been more then a couple situations where our approach did not work best, quite on the contrary.

DeepO

	06-06-2003 05:59									#103
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Wow.

Wow again.

Four thoughts:

1) And we all scratch our heads at what goes on in the world... we are a *fairly* homogenous bunch... imagine Central Europe and the Middle East.

2) Speaking as a member of GS, I'd just like to say that we are here very much as a part of the 'poly community, and please forgive us for any mis-steps we made / make in the social fabric of this game.

3) Yeah, GS's approach must be a little off-putting... many of us are the Strat guys, and that results in an interesting team dynamic (e.g., "Nonono, the tile at A8 must be roaded, which will take 4 turns, and then shared with X, and then irrigated, which will take 6 turns, and then Y can use it once, and then rest a Spear on it for one turn..." "NO, that's CRAZY!!!!" ad infinitum), which can appear non-communicative and isolationist, I guess... but it's not, trust me, we're just playing the game... we just seem to strive to do the best we can, in front of each other, and that seems to take up enough energy that we don;t interact with the other teams as much as we could / should. And yeah, maybe that shows up in our diplo actions as well. Forgive us, please.

4) As a reminder: One of the reasons that I, at least, got into this PTWDG was with the advent of MP and the clearly then upcoming ISDG... what can we learn from all of this that can help us there? As much as I am committed to Gathering Storm, I am also committed to Apolyton Spirit!!

Lastly, I am a semi-active player for GS (meaning I'm around most of the time, but due to RL stuff I am not an ambassador or =Consul)... I'd like to think I've got a pretty good rep around here, so I suggest myself as an inter-team ombudsman for GS, and suggest that each team appoint someone to the same role. (BTW, I am doing this on the spot, without having consulted GS). The ombudsman role? To defuse some of the emotion / enmity that seems to build up... In other words, PM me, and I'll tell you to take two aspirin and call me in the morning, and then try to settle whatever issues may need settling.

	06-06-2003 06:00									#104
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I feel bad. I think (know) that I contributed to some bad feelings between RP & GS. Bad feelings that should not exist IMHO.

I was at the beginning asked to be ambasador from RP to GS. I happily accepted. Unfortunately, as time went on (as someone stated above, PBEM does take a long time), and my circumstances changed. I had a hard drive go bad. I had some massive RL committments. All sorts of things. As such, I resigned my position. Ninot was the only other member of our RP team to accept the position as a replacement, but unfortunately, he has disappeared (I have no idea why, so I have no blame for him). To date, nobody on my team has volunteered to take his (or my) place.

So, there is all this stuff going on about the Feudalism trade. Simple, DeepO and myself communicated a bit about it. Sorry, I have erased all the PM and so cannot go back and refresh myself, but here is what occured per my (pea like) memory:

GS - You want Feud? We offer at XXX
RP - Sorry, already got a better price for it.
GS - OK, talked it over with team, we are firm on XXX
RP - Are you sure, we would like it, but XXX is just too much. First, we cannot afford that now. Second, we already have a price of YYY for it, but at this later date. Can you beat it?
GS - No, sorry, cannot beat it at this time. YYY is real cheap. When you get to that point, why don't you contact us then and we will see what we can do.
RP - OK. Thanks anyways. Lets talk later. (Unfortunately, even though I reported to the team that we should talk later, I don't think it ever happened, at least I know I wasn't involved in it).

So simple, a breakdown in communication is what appears to have occured is all.

Now, let me please state, this and all my posts are my personal opinion unless I say otherwise. I have no official position in RP team except Chamber Pot Cleaner (which means that whenever we need something done and I have time, I volunteer to do it and others confirm that I am doing it prior to me actually doing it - confused yet.) Basically, it is an honary position that does nothing (and ya, ever since my head has been cut off, the palace has had a particular oder about it).

DeepO has better written english skills than I do - which should be obvious to anybody trying to figure out some of the spellings I come up with. I spelled the word "OF" as "UV" until the 4th grade. Ask me to compute the bearing capacity of a slab of concrete, or the flow rate in a sewer - I am your man. I can public speak like a politician. I can write, sorta, but I need spellcheck when I remember. Also, I spent 3 years living in south america, where people speak Qucheua (sounds like Ketch-u-AH) the ancient language of the Inka and Spanish. I can completely sympathize with someone who understands written forms of a language, but has little grasp of neuances, slang or inuendo. I always thought DeepO and myself communicated fine. The discussions regardign Feud happened after I left my diplomatic post, but I volunteered to assist in the matter as nobody else was willing/able to do it.

Oh ya, and people are right, we often do nit-pick apart anything said, mostly because if you look at our team roster and remember (if you were there) the positions held by many of our team members - you know that many of us were the ones that came up with many of the back stabbing plans we developed for our FAM and also quite a few of us Domestic Ministry personal, who picked apart those same plans until we felt they were going to work against the AI.

So now, what does all of my rambling on mean. First, RP needs to set its house in order - Find a real diplomat for GS and communicate often. (GS can of course also take the lead in this.)

Second - everybody should shake hands, jump on a trampaline with a beautyful (DD) woman, and do the hoky poky..... Be friends. After all, it is just a game.



Ghost of GK the Heritic

	06-06-2003 06:04									#105
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO well, Beta, at least you can guess at a few of our clues

Don't tell me you've been taking clues from what BetaHound says?!?!

Despite the somewhat confrontational nature of most of this thread, I have really enjoyed it, and getting to know some GS members just a tiny bit. It makes me sad to think that I won't get an opportunity to play with some GS members in the next PtWDG.

	06-06-2003 06:22									#106
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GK, with one thing I don't agree on: you should not feel bad.

Before someone gets upset with what I wrote a few posts up, I was not trying to put any blame on anyone within RP, I was just pointing out that I know we messed up, but we were hardly alone. Plus, RP isn't the only team we have this 'problem' with, all our diplomatic contacts have degraded, and they weren't superb in the first place (the only ones we regularly talked to for a long time was Vox, and see what that brought us).

As to the issue of language (again ), it's not the spelling that matters, it's the understanding of nuances that I lack. Not only does this show in my postings (they can be more easily misinterpreted), but I don't always grasp the subtleties of what others say either. The two of us managed fine, I think, in that what we thought was really important was repeated enough. But still, it certainly is part of the reason why communication broke down, together with rl issues on both sides.

Theseus: I like the idea of an ombudsman, however in part, Zeit as our FM takes that role already. It's not often used, though... maybe another thing to look into (great, more talk of plans )

DeepO

	06-06-2003 06:27									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 RP and GS's security must be totally obliterated with this thread.

Maybe GS's but not RP's. We have not said one word about what we will do, one way or the other. If you want to assume so, be my guest, but you know where that might lead you...

	06-06-2003 06:29									#108
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It's like estranged lovers getting back together again.

	06-06-2003 06:34									#109
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing I was at the beginning asked to be ambasador from RP to GS. I happily accepted. Unfortunately, as time went on (as someone stated above, PBEM does take a long time), and my circumstances changed. I had a hard drive go bad. I had some massive RL committments. All sorts of things. As such, I resigned my position. Ninot was the only other member of our RP team to accept the position as a replacement, but unfortunately, he has disappeared (I have no idea why, so I have no blame for him). To date, nobody on my team has volunteered to take his (or my) place.

hehe

I made you the ambassador to GS a little while back. You didn't know this? Then there's a good reason you've been ignoring my requests! JK!

	06-06-2003 06:35									#110
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quote: Originally posted by dejon Don't tell me you've been taking clues from what BetaHound says?!?!

Argh... I had totally forgotten about that... talk about an unreliable source

No, really, more then one clue was mentioned in this thread, there is no need to go over them one by one. But just a quick example of something RP said here, which could at the time without much fantasy been taken as some kind of support to the war: when we offered Feud, RP was already paying 18 gpt. Now we have no way of knowing where that money went to, but we do know that Vox traded techs to RP just turns earlier... it isn't that far fetched to combine that with the initial comments by some RPers and assume that Vox was getting sponsored. Sure, it may be a purely economical thing for RP, but seeing it from our PoV, Vox was getting paid, and used that money to backstab us. At that time, and not even now do did we consider that as something we saw as damaging our relation (the same way as there isn't any grudge in our team against GoW selling 'our' feud to everyone else, they are in their right doing it, so why would we be upset about it to them), but it was one of those small things that in the end let us assume more is going on.

Again, I do not want to say that RP was the only 'ally' of Vox, not even that they were an ally in the weakest sense of the word, but we knew Vox was getting paid from somewhere, most likely multiple sources. Piling assumption on assumption eventually lead us to this thread, and all comments in them.

DeepO

	06-06-2003 06:36									#111
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quote: RP often does give you the feeling that anything you may say will be picked apart and searched for hidden meaning. Whether they do or not, that is the feeling you get from them at times.

Oh, I'm pretty sure we've done this at least once. Not all the time, but we certainly do like to read into things. Heck, we seem to be the only ones with enough people to pull it off....

We're not really such a conniving bunch. You'll find us to be truly loyal allies, should you ever befriend us. It fits with the RP.

	06-06-2003 06:40									#112
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quote: The War Against Luxian Agression

Would someone like to tell me what genius propagandist came up with that one?

	06-06-2003 06:43									#113
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Togas?

DeepO

	06-06-2003 07:00									#114
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Argh... I had totally forgotten about that... talk about an unreliable source But just a quick example of something RP said here, which could at the time without much fantasy been taken as some kind of support to the war: when we offered Feud, RP was already paying 18 gpt. Now we have no way of knowing where that money went to, but we do know that Vox traded techs to RP just turns earlier... it isn't that far fetched to combine that with the initial comments by some RPers and assume that Vox was getting sponsored. DeepO

DeepO

Besides us, Vox and you (GS), there are 3 other teams in this game. Assuming that we were paying them for something (specifically to help them against you) is the highest order of an what an assumption becomes. It makes an A** of you and me (A**-U-ME = Assume).

This is were better communications help things out.

E_T

	06-06-2003 07:06									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Thud Would someone like to tell me what genius propagandist came up with that one?

That's a low blow.

	06-06-2003 07:56									#116
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E_T.

1. Togas is a self-acknowledged despot. That is the form of government your team chose. His word is law, although he allows people on the team a lot of leeway.

2. Togas has been openly hostile to GS, and specifcally some members of GS more so.

3. From 1 and 2, it is not unreasonable for members of GS to conclude that RP is 'officially' hostile towards GS. Especially when combined with some other perhaps unfortunate sequences of events (or lack thereof) such as the diplomacy being dropped.

Time and subsequent events may prove 3 to be incorrect, but please don't pretend that there is no basis for it.

	06-06-2003 08:27									#117
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Togas has not been hostile towards GS members.

Togas has been hotile toward Apoltyon member's, some of whom are on the GS team.

Togas is no longer a Despot, we are in a Monarchy, he must answer to the people or they will call for his head.

There's basis to think that every team wants to destroy every other team; it's the order of that conclusion that is up for debate and the progress of the game to determine.

GS can hardly say that it doesn't want RP destroyed as well as RP saying they want GS destroyed. Everyone wants to win, some Civ's will likely be detroyed in the process. Also, every team will attack someone or be attacked in this game beofre it is over, have no doubts about that. It is the nature of the GAME.

	06-06-2003 08:36									#118
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Togas has not been hostile towards GS members. Togas has been hotile toward Apoltyon member's, some of whom are on the GS team. Togas is no longer a Despot, we are in a Monarchy, he must answer to the people or they will call for his head.

Are you being serious? Are you familiar with the thread where myself and several other GS members lost any desire to be part of PTWDG II? Have you seen any chat transcripts subsequent to that thread?

Good for you re Monarchy. Things can change.

	06-06-2003 08:40									#119
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I'm not saying that there wasn't any friction, but I believe that the friction was due to personalities and had nothing to do with the actual team you are on. The fact that you were on the GS team and he on the RP team, just added a label for each of you to attack; which was and is unfourtunate.

	06-06-2003 08:47									#120
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I think you are looking past some things, BigFree. Have another look at that thread. I will not presume to speak for all members of GS, but I know how I view Togas' words there, and in a chat afterward.

Yes, he has refined it to 'some members' of GS. That is not how it started, from my POV.