06-06-2003 08:49									#31
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Thanks Cruddy. I couldn't make heads or tails of Faded Glory's post. Far to technical for me.

I think I'll try to do a complete upgrade.

The way some of you talk, building your own computer sounds easy. Is it?

	06-06-2003 09:05									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Thanks Cruddy. I couldn't make heads or tails of Faded Glory's post. Far to technical for me.

His post wasn't so much technical as it was filled with buzzwords.

quote: I think I'll try to do a complete upgrade. The way some of you talk, building your own computer sounds easy. Is it?

It is easy, for those of us who do it.

But it's also probably a bit complex for most users.

Again, I urge you to look for a local company similar to www.memoryexpress.com

I haven't found anyone who can consistently beat their prices, plus they also build systems or partial systems. They'll install your CPU to your motherboard for free, a full hardware install (all your components hooked up) is $30CDN, and a full hardware+OS install is $60.

I'd recommend purchasing a new computer from a shop like that. You'll get good quality parts, for cheap, and won't need the hassle of learning how to build a computer.

	06-06-2003 09:17									#33
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Ok, I still have the k7s5a myself so I'll tell you something about it, even something new maybe

+cheap
+OK performance, not the fastest but worth the money, if you want cheap.
+supports sdr and ddr memory (but dont use them simultaniously!)
+reliable, even reviews confirm this. However, when I had SDR ram on this, I had to allways reboot once when I started my comp for the first time. Ugraded my bios, no help. Only thing I found on net was from other users: "use ddr ram". When I finally switched to ddr, the switch was not cause of the coldboot problem thought, my comp started booting normally.

-Like overclocking? Stay away from this board! With unofficial bios you have the setting of going from the default 100/133 fsb up to 200 fsb. What I read about this on the net, was that nobody has ever reported getting even 166 fsb to work on this board.
-Are you going to upgrade later? I haven't got any idea how long the newest boards on the market at the moment will be reasonably upgradable. I do know, that this board will not be compatible with the newest processors next year, because it's not even now. The fastest you ever get to work with ecs k7s5a is 2400+ or 2600+, these are fast enough now. And around that speed you should be getting, atleast I would. But lets say somebody gives you free duron i.e 800mhz. Use it in this board if you are soon planning to buy 2400+..

Some info: supports AGP 1/2/4
100/133 official fsb (athlon xp uses 133 fsb up to 2400+, from 2500+ on it has barton core and uses 166 fsb. i think there are 133 and 166 versions of 2600+)
integrated sound and 56k modem, there is also a lan version of k7s5a. I have non lan, and I can't comment about the sound since I use separate card for it.

	06-06-2003 09:29									#34
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Ah sorry, in case you don't know what is fsb: The overall prosessor speed is fsb multiplied with some constant. Example: With my CPU it is 133 FSB x 11.5.
That makes my cpu 1533 Mhz, and that is Athlon XP 1800+. If you want to compare it to pentium 4's, use the pr rating to compare to pentiums Mhz. XP 1800+ is about as fast as 1800mhz northwood pentium 4. I hope you checked the link they gave you.

	06-06-2003 12:02									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Don't buy a GeForce 4 MX -- it's a DirectX 7 card. A Radeon 9000 is a DirectX 8 card. Radeon 9500/9700/9800 and GeForce FX cards are all DirectX 9 cards. DirectX 9 are by far the most powerful, and flexible, and support DirectX 9 features in hardware that you otherwise do without or are emulated with great performance loss on older cards. Most games these days are DX8, but tomorrow's (and DOOMIII's) will be DX9-level games...

WHAT! So you're saying I won't be able to play Doom III on the GF4 Ti 4200 8xAGP I want to get....?

That instead I must get a GeForce FX? (Don't even talk to me about Radeons )

	06-06-2003 12:19									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Thanks Cruddy. I couldn't make heads or tails of Faded Glory's post. Far to technical for me. I think I'll try to do a complete upgrade. The way some of you talk, building your own computer sounds easy. Is it?

Well, faded glory was bang on - you did say you had a K7 but I thought it wise to show you how to check. Also, I've had years of experience in translating jargon - many people get annoyed at me for this (the point of jargon is shorthand to avoid long explanations) but if you have no entry into the jargon, it's impossible to start talking about it!

Anyway, easy... For myself, the TRICKY bit is fitting CPU and memory to a motherboard. First, ground yourself (grab hold of a cold water tap if nothing else) and avoid working on carpet or other static material.

Next, eyeball the motherboard connection and the part. See how the connection works. These days just about all connectors are keyed - they will only fit one way. Once you are sure you know which way it has to go, try fitting it. It should snap into place, and it's hard to get the pressure right - a certain amount of force is needed, but not too much - so build up slowly until you feel it slide into place. If there's no "give", stop trying and eyeball it again. Eventually you'll suss it - the trick is not to get angry and flustered.

Next, drives. Most non-floppy drives are IDE type, and the cable can usually fit in either way. The CORRECT way is to match the side with the red (or dappled) stripe into the side which is marked "Pin 1". If you get it wrong, no damage happens but the drive won't work until it's plugged in the right way.

Do a complete build in stages. Once the CPU, memory and drives are plugged in right, you can start up the machine and see how it goes. Before attempting to load Windows for the first time, you will need to change the BIOS settings so that the machine will boot from the Windows CD. (Hold down the DEL key when the machine is switched on. Select "standard CMOS settings" and use the PGUP/PGDWN keys to change 1st boot device to CD-ROM).

You could stick with Windows 98 - I do. However, it won't support memory over 512Mb, so if you want more memory than that, go for either Windows 2000 or Windows XP Pro. Avoid XP Home or Windows ME - I've never seen a good word written about either of them.

This is the slow, boring bit. Installing Windows. You would think the machine just has to read the CD once, but instead it takes a few resets to jiggle all the drivers into place. After the first reset, you should change the BIOS setting back so that the machine boots from the hard disk. Right at the very end (and it will take an hour or two) you have to type in the key code that came with Windows.

Once Windows is installed and you can go to the desktop and shut down the machine from the start bar, you can start adding things like graphics and sound. Do these expansions one at a time, because the machine has to reset in between adding cards.

Those are the pitfalls - actually bolting the bits together takes maybe an hour or less, it's the software install (Windows etc) that takes the time.

Personally, if I was in your shoes, I would go for a new K7 slot processor (say a 1Gig Athlon) and a new graphics card. That should keep you up to date for a couple of years. If you can change the CPU and add a graphics card, you will be up to the frustrations of building a machine from scratch.

Tinyp3nis, you guessed what mobo I'm building on. I'm impressed!

	06-06-2003 12:25									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt WHAT! So you're saying I won't be able to play Doom III on the GF4 Ti 4200 8xAGP I want to get....? That instead I must get a GeForce FX? (Don't even talk to me about Radeons )

That's not what he wrote. DirectX9 will support older gfx cards, but it has to emulate some of the features that are built into FX chips using the CPU and memory (emulation).

So you will be able to run Doom3 - just not as fast as those with FX cards. As if you couldn't have guessed!

	06-06-2003 13:27									#38
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Well, that's what he was implying anyway.

I thought it was just the new vertex lighting (or whatever) that Doom III wanted - and it was being specifically designed for the GF4. Did id do what everyone does and suddenly look up to see how much the top end has advanced and said "Only the best will do for us! Yessiree, everyone will have FXs when Doom III comes out! GF4? I don't even think anyone will have them!"

Games companies. I hate them so much!

	06-06-2003 18:01									#39
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Technology-wise, DOOM III is only using DX8 at its core to get full effects.

However, there are specific things for DX9 cards that make it render so much faster but look the same.

	06-06-2003 19:36									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It is easy, for those of us who do it. But it's also probably a bit complex for most users.

Yeah, I figure guys like you can do this blind-folded and in your sleep. I look at my computer and see all the wires and I'm thinking this is too complex for me.

But then I thought: I'm sounding my parents when they're faced with new technology. I'm going to take on this challenge and if I blow up my computer so be it. But I got to try to understand this stuff.

And I've got help. The stuff Cruddy posted is understandable and I should be able to follow it.

But the first thing I'll buy is a fire extinguisher just in case.

	06-06-2003 19:50									#41
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Good luck, if you have any questions at all, post here. There's a bunch of us here who have (or have had) jobs revolving around building computers.

And fire risk is extremely low, all of the current equipment has logic to turn itself off if it detects it's overheating.

	06-06-2003 19:53									#42
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Thing most likely to overheat is your temper Tingkai.

Go steady and cool.

Oh yeah, you may find you need extra push power to get the power leads into/out of hard drives and CD drives, but rest of it should be push and click.

	07-06-2003 00:17									#43
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But isn't doomIII Opengl, not directx?

	08-06-2003 11:37									#44
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actually cruddy

This is a socket A, what you have pictured is Slot A



I said unsure support, cause your socket a built in the 1ghz thunderbird era theoretically have a threshold up to a barton 3000+ but in reality dont


again,

	08-06-2003 11:38									#45
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everything will be moving to OpenGL. DirectX is finished

red x's eh. oh well heres a pic

www.overclockers.co.nz/ocnz/mobo/ amd/kt400/75frv/socket.jpg

	08-06-2003 11:49									#46
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory everything will be moving to OpenGL. DirectX is finished

I see the Iraqi Information Minister has a suitable replacement.

	08-06-2003 11:51									#47
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Indeed, i could do that. What makes you think DirectX will be around in 2-3 years?

	08-06-2003 11:54									#48
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Perhaps it's because OpenGL is only used in games with engines written by Carmack?

DirectX's use in games has only increased, and will increase for the forseeable future.

OpenGL is too slow to adapt to technology, DirectX 8 and 9 were out long before OpenGL 2.0 with comparable standardized technology, and even then the only way to get decent performance out of it is to write an ATI and Nvidia codepath for all the rendering (what Carmack does).

What makes you think DirectX will be gone in 2-3 years, when by game developers' perspectives it gets better each iteration?

Not to mention that hardware is designed around DirectX specs foremost. Nvidia and ATI both design for DX8/DX9/DX10, not OpenGL versions.

	08-06-2003 12:07									#49
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"written by Carmack"

Lie. i can name 3 others that are moving to Open GL in there next release.

"DirectX's use in games has only increased, and will increase for the forseeable future."

I dont have a response for that at the moment. Im not sure how you knew that. (like that dull, angled response? )

"OpenGL is too slow to adapt to technology, DirectX 8 and 9 were out long before OpenGL 2.0 with comparable standardized technology, and even then the only way to get decent performance out of it is to write an ATI and Nvidia codepath for all the rendering (what Carmack does)."

Carmack iz da shiet....

Ya if you could get DX 9.x to even work without destroying video card you were lucky. There wasnt even a DX9 game on the market yet, so who gaves a rats ass? And DX10 is early in dev.


What it comes down is everybody is chasing the DX R&D. OpenGL will come along, watch it.

	08-06-2003 12:11									#50
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Lie. i can name 3 others that are moving to Open GL in there next release.

Do it.

quote: Ya if you could get DX 9.x to even work without destroying video card you were lucky. There wasnt even a DX9 game on the market yet, so who gaves a rats ass? And DX10 is early in dev. What it comes down is everybody is chasing the DX R&D. OpenGL will come along, watch it.

Could you even tell me the fundamental differences between OpenGL and DirectX?

	08-06-2003 12:18									#51
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DirectX is Microsoft. It supports many features like 2D graphics, sound, input devices,3D graphics etc. DirectX changes alot and old functions are supported for backwards compatibility. DirectX is used in windoze and x-box.

want me to answer the second part?

oh heck. OpenGL is its nemesis API and works with all Platforms.

OpenGL is easier to devolop in (IMO)

	08-06-2003 12:21									#52
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okok...I fold on the first part. There were no '3 games'. I know DX is pretty critical in making games. But my opinions are my own, and im pretty damn biased about them, often to the point of making up false stuff.

	08-06-2003 12:21									#53
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory DirectX is Microsoft. It supports many features like 2D graphics, sound, input devices,3D graphics etc. DirectX changes alot and old functions are supported for backwards compatibility. DirectX is used in windoze and x-box. want me to answer the second part? oh heck. OpenGL is its nemesis API and works with all Platforms.

Or how about the smaller details?

OpenGL is largely a procedural API (C), DirectX is largely an object-oriented API (C++).

OpenGL was designed for workstation graphics, not games. DirectX was designed for games.

DirectX only has one output device for the monitor, and it automatically does what it can in hardware, tries to emulate the unsupported features in software, and if that fails it doesn't run those commands.
OpenGL has infinitely many output devices you can write to, and actually forces you to write code to address many of them individually because of vendor-specific extensions which are needed to do anything remotely modern in OpenGL.

DirectX drivers can be WHQL certified to ensure that the drivers all behave the way that they should, OpenGL has no such body to do certification.

quote: OpenGL is easier to devolop in (IMO)

For some reason I doubt you've ever even written a line of OpenGL code...

	08-06-2003 12:31									#54
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you can doubt it. But maybe I have? Why would I talk ****. Maybe my expierence with OpenGL API and DX is minimal compared to yours. But its there.


You left out. Quake, DOOM, and Hexen btw in the OPENGL, yes all from Carmack. Carmack knows his stuff tho.

My turn,
If your so smart 'ass'her. Whats GLIDE?

this is done anyway. Its 3:00 am

	08-06-2003 12:34									#55
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wasnt glide the proprietary 3dfx graphics engine?

	08-06-2003 12:35									#56
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory you can doubt it. But maybe I have? Why would I talk ****.

quote: But my opinions are my own, and im pretty damn biased about them, often to the point of making up false stuff.

quote: My turn, If your so smart 'ass'her. Whats GLIDE?

3dfx's proprietary API for Voodoo cards.

It was limited, but fast...

	08-06-2003 12:42									#57
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yay! i was right

	08-06-2003 16:59									#58
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About Tingkai 's original question, what about power supply? Is he going to need to upgrade that as well?

	08-06-2003 19:23									#59
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory actually cruddy This is a socket A, what you have pictured is Slot A

I am unaware of any Socket A 500 MHz AMD processors. Didn't that come in for 600 upwards? I could be wrong here... but I have NEVER seen a socket A as low as what Tingkai has.

quote: Originally posted by faded glory I said unsure support, cause your socket a built in the 1ghz thunderbird era theoretically have a threshold up to a barton 3000+ but in reality dont

Pont taken - Slot A does is not as expandable as Socket A, but for a total novice just changing a CPU is tough enough. A whole motherboard replacement is quite a challenge.

Your links don't work on my system - anybody else see faded glory's pix? I always upload mine (and it still takes 10 minutes or so to get the link just right).

As for OpenGL VS DirectX, I think OpenGL can be used for significantly faster updates, but it doesn't provide the same facilities as DirectX. Asher is right in the sense they were developed for diffferent markets, although I wouldn't say DirectX was PURELY for games - kind of all singing and dancing solution that includes games. Let's face it, games are the biggest area for graphics developers.

Mind you, if a game has an OpenGL graphics driver, I would prefer it. Not as good looking as DirectX but a lot faster (I've got a one lunged system, remember).

	08-06-2003 19:34									#60
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem About Tingkai 's original question, what about power supply? Is he going to need to upgrade that as well?

He never asked. You are right, a new mobo, XP Athlon and a brand new graphics card (Probably even an Nvidia Geforce TI) will be greedier than a 200W PSU can supply.

Again, upgrade in steps. If you start getting an erratic system, PSU can be the cause (or you need a new BIOS, or a new set of graphics or other drives, or something isn't quite connected properly, or a host of other niggles).

It WOULD be great if PSU builders actually tested each PSU to its maximum limit and put a sticker on to state this. Instead, every PSU gives a slightly different rating, and some makes vary incredibly as to their actual rating.

Finally, if TingKai goes Pentium 4, Tingkai WILL need a new PSU. IIRC P4s need an extra couple of power lines from the PSU, so it's best to a P4 approved one. I honestly don't know, because I have never built a P4 system.