05-06-2003 23:48									#1
	Consolidated new features suggestions for submarines :) CHECK IT OUT Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

COOL FEATURES BELOW! So many new possibilities! Now subs can be usable units. Who will add these features?! This applies also for other civs.

Submarines should have special abilities:

a) be totally invisible for all other players units unless this other player research sonar. So you can track movement of enemy convoy and attack with other units (even by other players with shared vision). So you an check from where enemy is sending his convoys and prepare ambush

b) nuclear submarines should be able to swim swim under polar caps and stay there for X turns (e.g. 3 turns).

c) Submarines can carry one-man units (spies, diplomats, explorers, commando forces (yes add it!).

d) missiles should NOT be able to _LAND_ on submarines (nonsense), but misile can be launched from submarine.

e) submarines could refuel scout airplanes (yes, add scout airplanes - no attack/defense but great vision radius, can see submarines (with sonar), can be refueled by subs, long ranged, can have automatic patrol function). I mean these old WWII scout planes with land on water function.

f) subs can attack multiple times at turn (just send multiple torpedoes )

g) erased

h) nuclear submarines can send torpedoes at 2 squares range, but attacking at longer range lowers attack value by 50% (harder to hit, bad torpedos). Such disadvantage should not be present for nuclear submarines (new topredo types).

i) when at WAR, coastal defenses (and fortified/sentry cannons and newer artillery units at fortresses) should attack nearby enemy units automatically. But not subs.

j) there should be "sonar" advance. Subs will be invisible for all units untill this advance. After this advance all sea units should be to see subs and attack it BUT Ironclad and older units should have lower detection range (one square max) and low power of attack on sub/defence against sub.

h) if sea transport unit contains one-person unit and it is sunk and nearby sub has free unit slots - there is 50% chance that nearby submarine rescue that unit. For rescuing enemy (or even friendly) spies/diplomats player can demand ransom

i) for cruisers and battleships subs will be visible in one square distance. For destroyers - two squares, for scout airplanes for three squares, for subs two squares.

Last edited by Iwo on 30-01-2004 at 16:12

	06-06-2003 14:16									#2
	Tired of ads?

I almost forgot to add - for cruisers and battleships subs will be visible in one square distance. For destroyers - two squares, for scout airplanes for three squares.

	08-07-2003 23:47									#3
	Re: Consolidated new features suggestions for submarines :) CHECK IT OUT Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Iwo j) Transports can see subs, but can’t defend (again, sub will not loose hit points).

Err, transport units are a representation of transport convoys (that's why they have some defence points). And transport convoys are composed of transport ships and escort ships. Escort ships can fight off threats, including subs. Therefore I don't think that the quoted proposal is sound as far as logic would dictate.

	09-07-2003 02:16									#4
	Got spare money?

You have a stange fetish for supersubs haven't you Iwo?


Actually some of your features are already present with some tweaking to the units. Drop the attack strength of a sub to one or even zero and give it missile carrying capability (torpedoes)*. It's actually quite easy to create a one-two range torpedo. When you get the shield costs right it could be quite economical to send out subs armed with torpedoes.


* this feature also goes for ships (cannonshells). This feature was first used prominently in Captain Nemo's 2nd front scenario. Where battleships could batter coastal units with long range artillery shells (aka missiles in disguise).

Last edited by CapTVK on 09-07-2003 at 02:34

	09-07-2003 03:04									#5
	Re: Consolidated new features suggestions for submarines :) CHECK IT OUT Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Iwo COOL FEATURES BELOW! So many new possibilities! Now subs can be usable units. Who will add these features?! This applies also for other civs. Submarines should have special abilities: a) be totally invisible for all other players units unless this other player research sonar. So you can track movement of enemy convoy and attack with other units (even by other players with shared vision). So you an check from where enemy is sending his convoys and prepare ambush

sounds good

quote: b) submarines can swim under polar caps and stay there for X turns (e.g. 3 turns).

good

quote: c) Submarines can carry one-man units (spies, diplomats, explorers). Also spyes should have pillage option. Why? Can act as Commando (so can destroy enemy railroad to slow down reinforcements arrival )

Requires a new unit flag (ONE_MAN) but sounds reasonable

quote: d) missiles should NOT be able to land on submarines (nonsense)

Not nonsense. During the Cold War the US and the SU both had large arsenals of SLBMs (Submarine Launched Ballistic Missiles)

quote: e) submarines could refuel scout airplanes (yes, add scout airplanes - no attack/defense but great vision radius, can see submarines (with sonar), can be refueled by subs, long ranged, can have automatic patrol function)

All the recon aircraft I know of fly at very high speeds/altitudes and are unable to stay in the air at altitudes/speeds low enough to be refueled by a sub. An air unit capable of refueling other air units wuold be reasonable as it was used to keep a full squadron of B-52s in the air at all times.

quote: f) subs can attack multiple times at turn (just send multiple torpedoes )

already implemented

quote: g) where is nuclear submarine? "b)" and "h" options should be available for nuclear submarines only. Also nuclear subs should have extended attack, defense, move, hit points etc.

Research Nuclear Power. It raises the movement rate of all sea units.

quote: h) nuclear submarines can send torpedoes at 2 squares range, but attacking at longer range lowers attack value by 50%

A torpedo accelerates toward a target. Therefore attcaking a unit only one square away should do less damage.

quote: i) submarines can’t be attacked by nearby coastal defenses, fortresses and long range units (cannons, arterially etc.) These structures and units (cannon and newer) should attack other ships.

didn't know this was possible in freeciv

quote: j) sonar can be attached on units NEWER than ironclad only, so trireme, caravel, galleon, frigate, ironclad not only can’t see submarines, also can’t attack submarines (even detected by other player with e.g. shared vision). C’mon guys... how trireme can sink sub? Also submarine should not loose ANY hit points attacking units older than destroyer. Transports can see subs, but can’t defend (again, sub will not loose hit points).

A sonar unit can be put on anything large enough to hold it and whatever its power source is, what the boat is made out of is insignificant. If a civ has dynamite it can put it in a barrel and throw it overboard and hope it damages the sub. Naturally this would have a low attack value.

quote: h) if sea transport unit contains one-person unit and it is sunk and nearby sub has free unit slots - there is 50% chance that nearby submarine rescue that unit. For rescuing enemy (or even friendly) spies/diplomats player can demand ransom

Okay, but there should also be a chance that an enemy spy/diplomat bribes your sub.

You had a few good ideas but some of them were not well thought out.

	09-07-2003 13:40									#6
	Re: Re: Consolidated new features suggestions for submarines :) CHECK IT OUT Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by geeslaka Not nonsense. During the Cold War the US and the SU both had large arsenals of SLBMs (Submarine Launched Ballistic Missiles)

He means the missiles landing on submarines, wich is bullshit IMO. He did not mean missiles launched from submarines.
Good suggestions btw.

	09-07-2003 18:52									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well in that case it just requires a special case check to see if the sub is in a city before allowing the missile to refuel.

	10-07-2003 01:13									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The fact that missiles can be launched or return back to base at the end of turn does defy logic. However, on the grand scale played and from a gamebalance perspective it's understandable however. It would be rather odd if missiles cannot be placed on subs or aircraft carriers and yet fly from city to to city or airfields on land. You would have to create a special subclass of flight units which makes it even harder for casual players to understand the game.

Another solution would be to simply give missiles and shells the paratrooper the ability to 'airdrop' within a certain range and a unitmovement of one to attack the intended target after they 'land'.

	10-07-2003 02:54									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Maybe missiles should be only movable over land with special trucks, off course that would be too annoying to have to built those trucks over and over again, so maybe the game can recognise the missile being on land and use another sprite for that occasion, being a missile on a truck.
This explanation is maybe a bit confusing, I'll try to give an example.
The missile has three ways of getting somewhere:
1. Over land, in this case the missile is displayed as a missile on a truck.
2. On a sub/other ship, in this case it's just like anything moving on a ship.
3. Through the air, but in that case it can't land but only explode somewhere.

	14-07-2003 00:25									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

As with most ideas, the really important part is who will make the changes...

Amphibious land units would be a better improvement for the game. They move and use all normal flags on land, but on the water they can use water flags. Also, they still need the marine flag to actually engage in combat on the water.

A good example would be the Duck, a WWII truck / floating dumpster. Amphibious units would be cool if one was playing a map as if it was a battlefield, rather then as the world as a whole.

Another good idea would be transport helicopters.

THE PROBLEM IS:

The ai. Although changing the rules of the game is pretty easy, making the ai able to use these abilities isin't.

Chris Verlo
Sophomore, Computer Science
Iowa State University

	30-01-2004 16:10									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Hi all, I corrected my old post about submarines after some answers.

"Research Nuclear Power. It raises the movement rate of all sea units." - it is another one nonsense in Freeciv, trireme with nuclear reactor LOL. There ahould be upgarde for units newer than ironclad only!

	25-02-2004 12:28									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: "Research Nuclear Power. It raises the movement rate of all sea units." - it is another one nonsense in Freeciv, trireme with nuclear reactor LOL. There ahould be upgarde for units newer than ironclad only!

Please, this is not The Sims. Freeciv (and the original CivI/II/III) is a turn-based strategy game, not a simulation. It cannot reflect the level of realism you are proposing, and was never meant to.

And by your argument, none of the Wonders of the World makes any sense either. It's the gameplay, stupid! Realism has nothing to do with it.

	06-01-2005 21:22									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Giving submarines undetectability w/o tech and automatic victory versus older units and transports would make them invincible against a less advanced opponent. Technology should give you advantages, but that's ridiculous.

with respect to loading missiles onto subs, perhaps a second type of submarine, with less offensive\defensive capabilities, would be appropriate for this.