10-06-2003 12:16									#31
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This is excellent news.

I'm in favor of giving away iron for 2 techs. Especially if we can get a jump on Education!

We need to keep GS informed, and have them blockade Vox's port, not ours ... hopefully many turns after Vox gets the iron and kicks a little more GS butt.

GS will eventually understand why we did this deal, and so long as we remain honest with them, there will be little long term sting over it.

--Togas

	10-06-2003 17:11									#32
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I like it.

We should find out what Lego is researching. I don't agree with Education next. Why? Once we have Republic, there's no reason to rush for Democracry. I think we should go for Invention and then Gunpowder. The sooner we have Muskets defending, the safer we are from ND and GoW.

	10-06-2003 20:27									#33
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Theo,Chiv, + <100g IMO. Considering they "seemed too happy".

Good plan for GS

	10-06-2003 20:33									#34
	Justifying the Iron trade... Got spare money?

I haven't heard any more discussion on this, and from the screenshots of our last save, the workers in the group which is roading near our second iron resource have all by-passed the iron. I was under the impression we were going to build a colony soon

Anyway, I was thinking about how we could spin this in discussions with GS, how we could make it seem less of a threat. One possibility we could use to make the act seem less aggressive is this:

We claim that we have had a long-standing Resource Pact with Vox to provide any resource that the other lacks through the course of the game, if we had a surplus to give. We are now obligated by our pact to hook up the iron and supply them, though at a cost. Though we do not want war and though we can clearly see how the war has unfolded in GS's favor, we cannot break from our obligations. This alone was the reason for the heated debate in GS's "public announcement" thread; we were being threatened with war simply for fulfilling the terms of a very old treaty.

Furthermore, we are telling you (GS) this because we wish to avoid being drawn into a protracted war by trading the iron, which we must. We can abide a war to blockade their port. That action would make perfect sense on the part of the Gathering Storm. What we are seeking to avoid is a costly and bloody conflict between are two great nations solely due to a diplomatic lapse that should never have happened and responsibilities on our side that we should never have committed to.

Obviously, this is all fluff and should be tagged as confidential info that we have provided GS. They should know that Vox would deny it as part of the treaty itself, and we have only spoken up out of concern for peace and stability and our own national security.

Its just an option that could be used to help confuse their understanding of our intentions...

	10-06-2003 20:48									#35
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Na. Just tell the truth. Vox asked us for the iron. We traded for it. We got a good deal. Sorry if you don't like it, but oh well.

	10-06-2003 21:15									#36
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Na. Just tell the truth. Vox asked us for the iron. We traded for it. We got a good deal. Sorry if you don't like it, but oh well.

Remind me. Weren't you a diplomatic ambassador at one time? You don't seem two-faced enough to have ever made the cut

We may need to make GK the second casualty of the Inquisition, as well

	10-06-2003 22:12									#37
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I like this.

	10-06-2003 23:10									#38
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I was thinking of justifying to Vox that we will need all our pikemen on our land to defend from an invasion from GS, specially one aimed at cutting this iron, and ask for whatever they can give us now and later a discount in engineering (just a discount, so we can get other things from them right now, in a very likely scenario that they will fly over to valhalla before giving us engineering...). They will most likely accept as they are in desesperate need of Iron. If I understood things properly, Lego will lend even more gold to Vox after our Iron, so that Vox can rush and upgrade their spearmen. Then GS blockades Vox, and we sit while they desesperatedly fight one each other for opening or closing the ports, and while Vox attempts one last attack on GS, with Pikemen, with foreseable destructive consequencesto both, and the final Vox defeat as a consequence (or an unlikely but very optimistical stalemate between them).
I guess this could do the cut. Just signal me to PM Beta when you need it.
Nuclear Winter
remebering when we considered the war being a ruse between Vox and GS...

	11-06-2003 00:11									#39
	Remove this text

I Like R_M's wording.

	11-06-2003 00:33									#40
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I like ruby's wording too. First though, we need to check with Vox to make sure they haven't said anything that would contradict that.

	11-06-2003 00:46									#41
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I'm not in favor of lieing to GS about this non-existing pact. I don't think they'll buy it. If it truely existed we would have brought it up earlier, AND we would have given Vox iron earlier.

I am in favor of taking GK's approach.

--Togas

p.s. Death seems to have made GK suddenly one of the wisest amongst us.

	11-06-2003 00:57									#42
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We could make that a stipulation in the iron deal for Vox. Vox has to agree to state that we indeed had such a "resource pact" in the past and it was activated when GS cut their supply.

I'm pretty sure that Vox hasn't said anything to them about not having a pact as such, so implementin one retroactively won't be too hard.

I'm waiting to hear back from Lego on this deal now. We are two turns from hooking up the Iron now. One to move a worker onto it, and another to build the colony. If Lego comes back with a yes to the proposal, we need to send GS and Vox their repective messages rather quickly. I want them both to recieve their messages before we actually give the Iron to Vox.

There's also the matter of the timing of the Iron. Do we tell Lego that we want Theology before we trade Iron to Vox? What if they want to wait until we actually give it to Vox first? We can cut the Iron deal afterwards if we wanted to be mean about it, though it would cost us our Iron too as we would have to cut both sources since when we cut the first source, we will lose Iron first, whle the other Source of Iron is shipped to Vox. That's the way that Civ 3 works. Once we cut the second source of Iron, Vox's supply will be gone and the trade will be nullified and we can connect up either source and it will go directly to us and the deal will not be reactivated until we do so in game.

So Lego is should be pretty assured that we would go through with the deal and not just take their one tech and run.

	11-06-2003 01:04									#43
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We would not have brought it up earlier if we were discussing it among ourselves whether we should abide by it or not. Also, we could not have given it to them earlier cause we didn't have the second souce hooked up; it wasn't a priority at the time for us.

We can lie or we can say we did it to benefit Spain and not to hurt GS. Either way works for us, but which allows GS to have better relaltions towards us?

	11-06-2003 01:18									#44
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"A tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

It's too dangerous to lie. I like GK's approach as well. GS members seem like the type to appreciate blunt honesty too - and they'll be sure to smell a rat if we give them a long winded, nicely worded, excuse.

	11-06-2003 01:35									#45
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I hope you are one of the people who voted for the iron trade then.

Then, you could consider it a concession to people like myself who didn't want the d@mn thing in the first place, but who are more than willing to do it if we do not blatantly p*ss in the face of a nation that has the ability to take away any competitive chance we would have in this game.

...or maybe, as Togas says, there really is a correlation to being dead and being wise.

	11-06-2003 01:54									#46
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser I hope you are one of the people who voted for the iron trade then. Then, you could consider it a concession to people like myself who didn't want the d@mn thing in the first place, but who are more than willing to do it if we do not blatantly p*ss in the face of a nation that has the ability to take away any competitive chance we would have in this game. ...or maybe, as Togas says, there really is a correlation to being dead and being wise.

Was this to me?

I voted against the iron trade when it was part of a "assist Vox however we can" movement. I am fine with it now that: we have restored communications with GS; we're talking about luxury trades; we may get some tech(s) out of it.

I think we have to tread carefully diplomatically with GS, it's not like we're bosom buds all of a sudden. That's why I'm in favour of a forthright approach, as opposed to conceiving an elaborate lie.

	11-06-2003 02:00									#47
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser Remind me. Weren't you a diplomatic ambassador at one time? You don't seem two-faced enough to have ever made the cut

Why do you think I quit

quote: We may need to make GK the second casualty of the Inquisition, as well

First, AND SECOND... what, you intend to kill my ghost... cool. Care to tell me how?

Ghost of GK

	11-06-2003 02:06									#48
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quote: Originally posted by dejon I am fine with it now that: we have restored communications with GS; we're talking about luxury trades; we may get some tech(s) out of it.

It was directed to anyone who thinks those renewed, good communications and luxury trades are actually gonna last when we take the bold and forthright approach (ie: suck it up; we are making the trade anyway).

They've already said they'd at least declare war to blockade the Vox harbor. That kills any trades for the duration of the war, and the ill-will could easily kill it for a long time thereafter.

	11-06-2003 02:16									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Togas p.s. Death seems to have made GK suddenly one of the wisest amongst us.

Death has its benifits.

IMHO, lieing is all to easy to catch in this game. All it takes is one slip by one person at one time and WHAM, any and all of our diplomatic relations with ALL teams go to hell.

No, the best course is to just be honest in it. We looked at the situation. We feel it is in our best interests to help this war continue in a stalemate as long as possible (don't even pretend otherwise); we were asked to provide the Iron as we were able to connect another source rather quickly; we were given a good trade for the iron. End of issue. We understand that you (GS) will have to do what you choose to do. We understand and respect it. Care to trade any Luxuries?

Being sneaky means that the other team doesn't suspect you of being sneaky. Any other course of action will appear sneaky, so lets not even try.

I am starting to lean in favor of this trade as we can gain 2 or 3 techs from it. It will upset GS, but there is little they can do at this time (they were immortal rushed after all). Eventually, if they prosper, they might come after us. But that is something we will have to deal with when and if.

	11-06-2003 02:19									#50
	Put an end to popups!

It is still posible for GS not to declar war on Spain. The could opt to blockade Vox's harbor instead, and would probably do so in order to facilitate any trades. I see merit in doing it either way. I leave it for other's to decide if we lie or not. Though I guess lieing should be considered only when necessary...

	11-06-2003 02:54									#51
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GS and many teams already assume that we lie. Anyone that works with me in any of the other games knows that I'm somewhat tricky and manipulative. The general assumption with us is that we're up to something. And I just can't see why we'd sign a resource trade pact with Vox a long time ago ... it's not really in character, not something we've signed with anyone else, and doesn't seem to give us anything valuable (come on ... resources from Vox?!).

The general assumption is that we're F.O.S., and covering up the fact that we're backing Vox in the war.

It's better to "come clean" that we're making an absurd profit from this deal ... a deal that ANYONE else in our shoes would have taken in a heartbeat.

Furthermore, when they start to question who's paying the price for our iron, and they eventually learn that it's Lego, who do you REALLY think they'll blame for all this?

--Togas

	11-06-2003 03:22									#52
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I support GK's idea. "Making an absurd profit" as Togas sugested is especially appealing.

Daniel de la Civ

OOC: Hmm, maybe it's time to mention GK's ghost in the tribunal of Roberto . Although I would need a character beyond my two witnesses to do it because Madero is not involved with the government/strategic planning, and Roberto would not mention it because it would hurt his case. So please, someone else, mention it !

	11-06-2003 03:25									#53
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You are right Togas.

	11-06-2003 03:32									#54
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Senor de la Civ, it is my understanding that Senor's Calamari and Mitchell will be undertaking such a project to make the matter of the trial/murder of GK public.

	11-06-2003 06:35									#55
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(a strange, wide eyed figure cloaked in ecclesiastical black appears in the midst of the room from behind the dark curtains)

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease...allow me to introduce myseeeeeeelf.

I am Dr. Pinch!

My card!

As it is...I absoluteleeeeeeeee excel at eeeeeeexorcising eeeeeeevil spirits. If you neeeeeed meeeee, you know where to call.

The local pub!

The Rev. Dr. Pinch
Exorcist of Evil Spirits

	11-06-2003 15:26									#56
	Inflate your Upload Space

I did not yet post it in here, because I talked about it with his Majesty and Señor Libre in the chat. I got a PM from Nimitz about 8 hours after Señor Libre ended his chat with ZargonX. This is what he wrote:

quote: Umm, I was wrong on the chivalry tech we won't be getting it any time soon so we'll have to think of a new tech.

The outcome of the discussion I had with his Majesty and Señor Libre, is that his Majesty and I think Lego is trying to play us a trick: first telling me in details (Nimitz mentioned how many turns) about the research of Chivalry, and 12 hours later (yes, it took them so long to discover they are not researching what they thought they were researching) telling me the opposite.
Señor Libre thought and hoped it was just a mistake because Legoland adopted a new government which we abhor, republic. I hope too that it was just a mistake, but I doubt it.

I think we could simply do as if I did not inform you of the PM because I did not come online or something and to keep demanding both Theo and Chiv, without any restrictions about building the Sixtine Chapel.

I also think it would be good to demand additional gold, something about 100 g lump sum. If they refuse, we can stick to Theo and Chiv.

If they keep saying that they have no Chiv and do not research it I think we should be very clear: no Chiv means no iron to Vox.

I can write the PM myself or Señor Libre can do it, whatever he likes.

Diomingo Cian,

Royal Ambassador to Legoland

	11-06-2003 20:28									#57
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Yes, we should stick to our...pikes on this one. Chivalry or else.

If they can't give us a good deal, I don't see why we should waste our valuable resources. What good have these people been to us anyway? What allies have the Carthaginians been but poorly ones? Why should we seek to assist them when they do not assist us?

We want Chivalry, and we won't accept their "mistakes". If not, they can forget about Persia receiving our iron.

From henceforth, Togas's thoughts be bloody, or nothing worth!

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo

	11-06-2003 22:05									#58
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I agree with the idea of making public the iron deal (and secretely allowing the blockade of Vox's harbor). Also, as Togas wisely said, it would be a good thing to us that GS discovers Lego's role in the war...

	12-06-2003 01:23									#59
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I agree with BigFree, Ghost of GK and Togas approach.

Great plan

	12-06-2003 02:42									#60
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PM from Nimitz of Lego

quote: Umm the deal with over the iron is no longer needed, vox has said there not going to be buying iron from you, so the deal is not needed and such you will no longer need our help. Now if you would like to make some other normal feel free to PM me. Sorry about how things turned out, but what happens happens. Nimitz

We'll see if this is true. Vox has yet to tell us anything and Nimitz has been known to be wrong before.

If he's right, I would assume that Vox and GS are at peace now, but that could change in the near future, we'll keep a close eye on things.