06-06-2003 05:24									#1
	AID package from Lego? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Lego might be willing to offer us something in return for our giving Vox Iron, if we decide to do so. I found this out in a chat with vondrack of Lego.

Lego Chat

What kind of things should we ask for? They want us to propose something specific.

Post ideas and comments please.

	06-06-2003 06:15									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

5 techs and 1000 gold, no GPT, just flat out gold. Oh ya, how about that city they are building the colosus in.....

(In other words, for everything they have and then some so that we in efect say no thanks).

	06-06-2003 07:41									#4
	Suffering from ads?

I'm thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of 10gpt or Theology.

Just a "discount" on tech isn't a bargain at all, especially considering the risk we'd be taking.

--Togas

	06-06-2003 07:54									#5
	Tired of ads?

Do we have their map yet? Been a while since I looked at a save.

	06-06-2003 07:57									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

still don't have lego's map. All we have is GoW's map of half of legoland's shores.

--Togas

	06-06-2003 08:03									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

IF, and a BIG IF it is in my opinion, we decide to go this route, I suggest we demand their map as a part of their initial payment (and then we whore it around if possible).

	06-06-2003 11:42									#8
	Tired of ads?

GK, that is not an option for them.

We may be able to squeeze out Theology (with a gurantee that we don't build The Sistine Chappel) or 10 gpt, since they are just now coming out of Depotism to Republic.

Remeber, we are selling the Iron to Vox, not Lego.

	06-06-2003 20:33									#9
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We want Theology, and we want Sistine Chapel. This is our wonder.

	06-06-2003 21:03									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

We aren't going to get Sistine. We can't afford a wonder build. Regardless of what we do with Vox/GS, we have to focus on building our military and settling our remaining land, and all cities must contribute.

I am against helping Vox, so I have no opinion on this aid package.

	07-06-2003 03:40									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

How about getting atleast a Territory Map from them. That still doesn't show what else they still have to settler, but it gets us something....

I also like the idea of Theo.

E_T

	07-06-2003 03:54									#12
	Suffering from ads?

I suppose, though, that I don't want us to give Vox iron at all. It would only damage our reputation abroad.

	07-06-2003 03:59									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by E_T How about getting atleast a Territory Map from them. That still doesn't show what else they still have to settler, but it gets us something.... I also like the idea of Theo. E_T

Don't even mention it. They have a constitutional rule that if they trade their map to some civ, they have to trade it to all civs, something they don't like and thus won't do.

BTW, those Legos are a bit strange, I sent Nimitz a PM long ago to announce that I am the new ambassador to Legoland, but I didn't receive a reply. It must have arrived, because it was before the problems with 'Poly.

Diomingo Cian, royal ambassador to Legoland

	07-06-2003 04:05									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

AT LEAST a tech AND an amount of gpt over 10. Giving Vox Iron is a TREMENDOUS risk that we can't take lightly.

	07-06-2003 05:43									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I've only got Nimitz to respond to 2 PMs, and one of those was on DIA business. You'll do much better on IRC, Aidun, or so I have experienced. Anyway, yes, the are a stange folk, but being alone gives them a right to that.

	07-06-2003 05:53									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Warning: If you stay alone for too long, your brain might turn to mush.

"Do bugs scream when they die?" is an example of whut I've thought in my more alone times.

Fortunately, IRC provides a surrogate social life so I never have to be alone
---
On second thought, I'd tell Lego we need to line up support from ND first--we can either force them into confirming our fears of their plans against us or milk them, IMO. (Confirm or milk ND, not Lego)

	07-06-2003 22:18									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

(Duke Toledo is rather interested by Senor Mitchell's suggestion...grabbing an earhorn, he flicks a flea off his shoulder....quickly pulling forth the earhorn, he barely makes out an almost inaudible "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah", followed by a sickening squelch as it hits the pavement...)

Senor Mitchell is also right when it comes to iron deal. I am against such a trade, it can only harm us, but if we must do this than it should be for a technology or two and for 10 gold tonnes per turn. I see nothing wrong in that demand.

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo

	07-06-2003 22:37									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Why not incite chaos and death in enemy lands? Why not cause turmoil? Dead Estonians means less people to prevent FULL SPANNISH DOMINANCE! AHHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
* Nuclear Winter laughs like a maniac, only stopping when he notices all are looking at him
Errr... well , a dominance of love and peace, that is...

	08-06-2003 00:12									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Peace... ba, humbug. Where are your good old viking genes... oh, wait, we are spanish in this forum..... Ba, spain likes blood also.. Lets just kill everybody.

	08-06-2003 03:53									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Splendid idea, GodKing, old chap.

	08-06-2003 07:31									#21
	Got spare money?

Exactly right, guys, but I didn't know how delayed the tech would be (16 turns!?). I say the more the tech is delayed, the more gold we heap on--after all, we are offering their last hope, don't you think they ought to be a bit more humble for it?

	10-06-2003 04:57									#22
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

BigFree -- It's time to finalize this. We've been waiting for someone to make an offer to us, we now need to get a final proposal to Legoland for us selling Iron to Vox (note, we will also ask Vox for Republic if we cannot get it from another source, but let's leave that out of all discussions with Legoland).

Tell Legoland that we will send Iron to Vox if they will send us a sizeable gift. We would like either technology or GPT to pay for the Iron shipments.

Get a PM to them TONIGHT and try to set up a chat ASAP.

We need to find out if it's even worth it to consider sending Iron.

--Togas

	10-06-2003 05:17									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I am chatting with Nimitz about this topic right now.

Diomingo Cian

Royal Ambassador to Legoland

	10-06-2003 06:08									#24
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Result of the Chat: Lego has theology and will have chivalry in 11 turns, but because they have switched to republic and are facing discontent, the luxury slider will be raised and chivalry will drop to 15 turns. I am not sure about these amount and I think they are adding some turns to the real amount of turns because it took Nimizt quite long to say how long it would take and my experience is that Legos debate a lot behind the scene while the FAM is negotiating.

The additional lump sum they want to give is 150 gold.
I think we can ask formore in our offer.

They think that Vox is still pretty strong and still has citydefences. They have not seen the map, but don't know we have a map. They believe GS and Vox are equal in military strength. I have told them that Vox is weakening, but not how much.

Aidun

	10-06-2003 06:27									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

So, let me get this straight:

We get Chivalry in 15 turns and 150 Gold now? What about Theology?? That IMHO is the more valuable tech to have. We also know that Lego is going to be selling Chiv to GS (from the chat) and that the tech will be further devalued.

As for Lego, our "partners from the start", we can have a better partner with someone else, IMHO. I say that we screw them over, get Theo and the 150 Gold (hopefully in GPT) and then don't sell the Iron to Vox.

If Lego want's to make a big stink about it in the Open Forum, then GS will KNOW that Lego has been supporting Vox (and maybe look completely away from us for all time). It's time for Lego to either put up with our original agreement from the start of the game, or to take it like they have been doing to us.

E_T

	10-06-2003 07:14									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Legoland has never honored their agreement to give us "most favored" status or to give us good deals on techs. We have cooperated with them to a great degree, but they've been historically stingy, almost as much so as GS (who has been the stingiest of all).

However, if they're giving Chivalry + 150g, that really isn't a bad deal at all.

We could always give Iron to Vox and then sit back while GS cuts it. However, taking Legoland's payment and giving nothing to Vox would be a very trecherous thing to do, and would probably put us on Legoland's bad side for most of the game. Not sure if it's worth it.

However, we need to get a finalized proposal out of this. I'm thinking a tech (Theology or Chivalry) and 12gpt for every turn that we're giving Iron to Vox until GS blockades their port.

--Togas

	10-06-2003 07:30									#27
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

[ooc]Shouldn't have made the deal with them...we've given them what they wanted and gotten nothing out of it. I suppose, though, it's no use crying over burned tamales.[/ooc]

Milord King,

If we must give these Persians that iron, then we must go for something as you have laid out. However, I wonder if Theology is not indeed more important than Chivalry. We are, after all, the home of the One True Church here in Spain. The people want the technology to build marvelous cathedrals to honor Our Lord.

On the flip side, in order to protect God's Church on earth, we shall need strong and able troops, and a pure military system. The old warrior code is inflexible and outdated. The code of Chivalry would certainly be beneficial, and the abilities to make armor for our horses would certainly help our defense. I wonder if we should not wait for it from the Chinese, however.

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo

	10-06-2003 10:13									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I say we tell Lego that we want Theology now and Chiv when they get it. Pass on the gold. They will give in to these demands if they truely feel that Vox has a chance against GS.

	10-06-2003 10:29									#29
	Support Apolyton

I actually popped into a chat with ZargonX of Lego. I put this here because it is so short. I will darft a PM to send to Vox immediately. I asked for Theo and Chiv for the Iron and he seemed to have a positive response to it; almost to positive. Perhaps they think they are killing two birds with one stone by locking us in against GS, so giving us two techs may be cheap to them...

quote: Session Start: Mon Jun 09 22:13:33 2003 Session Ident: ZargonX [22:13] BigFree- ZargonX, can you chat right now? [22:14] ZargonX- sure! [22:14] BigFree- cool [22:14] BigFree- have you heard from your ambassador as to his talks with ours? [22:14] BigFree- PTWDG [22:15] ZargonX- yes, I have [22:15] ZargonX- read through the logs earlier [22:15] BigFree- ok, I want to make a counter offer now, it is something that RP feels strongly about because of what we are putting at risk here, while Lego get's to keep it's nose clean, so to speak. [22:16] ZargonX- go ahead [22:16] BigFree- Angering GS cannot be taken lightly [22:16] BigFree- we want Theology now and Chiv when you get it for us giving Vox Iron. [22:17] ZargonX- well, I'll have to take it to the team, of course [22:17] ZargonX- has the iron trade gone through already? [22:17] BigFree- our own researching will have to take a backseat when GS declares war on us. [22:17] BigFree- no it hasn't [22:17] BigFree- we are 1-2 turns from hooking it up [22:18] ZargonX- and you feel positive that GS will attempt an invasion of Bob in retribution? [22:18] BigFree- most definately [22:18] BigFree- they have easy access across the sea tiles [22:18] BigFree- due to the Light House [22:19] BigFree- they have made it clear in the public frorum that they would decalre war on us [22:19] ZargonX- true [22:19] BigFree- they feel that Vox is evil, and that any who help them are with the "axis of Evil" [22:20] ZargonX- heh [22:20] ZargonX- ok, can you PM a draft of the proposal so I can put it up for review? [22:20] BigFree- we promise to help conceal Lego's involvement also [22:20] BigFree- sure [22:20] ZargonX- then we can get back to you aSAP [22:20] BigFree- good [22:21] ZargonX- great! [22:21] BigFree- thanks for the caht [22:21] ZargonX- I'll let you know as soon as we've had a chance to talk about it [22:21] ZargonX- no problem! [22:21] BigFree- cool [22:21] BigFree- bye Session Close: Mon Jun 09 22:21:35 2003

	10-06-2003 12:00									#30
	Remove this text

Ok, if we get this deal from Lego; Theology and Chivalry for us trading Iron to Vox, this is how I see things happening.


Lego is happy to give us these two techs as it puts GS and RP on a collision course. Lego is happy building while the rest of the world is at war.

What Lego doesn't know is that we are now on speaking terms with GS. Sure GS will be pissed when they hear that we are giving Iron to Vox, but I suggest that we tell them ahead of time to at least give them some waring and allow us to explain ourselves. And here's how we'll do it:

Points to make with GS

1. We are simply taking advantage of our (God)game given resources and are not choosing sides in this war. The Market place is open to all Civ's in our opinion. Spain is just looking out for itself here.
   
2. Given that GS is in a state of war with Vox we quite well understand their position that they do not want Vox to have Iron. We will "allow", secretly, GS to blockade our Harbor in Barcelona, but they should not step foot on Bob or attack any of our units or settlements.
   
3. We tell GS that Vox had asked for our help in this war and that we were inclined to provide it in terms of military units. But now that we have had the chance to actually talk with GS, we see the situation differently and would now withdraw our military support of Vox against GS. We would rather have good relations with GS than anyone else.
   
4. Declaring war on us is something that Lego would love. They get to build while we are at war. Let's not play into what Lego would benefit most form. Instead let's plan a long term commitment against Lego.
   

Now for Vox:

Vox will likely understand our withdraw of Military support, and would be happy with our giving them Iron instead. They would not, at least outwardly, express extreme anger over this and would welcome the Iron since they are DEAD without it.

Now for GoW:

They too will react as Vox will. They will understand that if we give iron to Vox openly, GS will strike us first, in our own lands, rather than GoW. With this risk, we need our troops at home. (make same point to Vox as well)

This idea is just an idea. Please post comments and questions and say what you think wil happen if we do this. Also make suggestion on how we can make even better deals for Spain.

With Theology in our hands and Chivalry on the way, we can start to do our own reaseacrh and try to take the lead for once. We can go for Education next??