06-06-2003 06:57									#1
	What's the one wonder that causes you the most trouble? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Sort of on the lines of BobSmurf42's poll in Strategy, I thought I'd throw this question out there, for fun - except not in that fancy poll format :

What's the one wonder which you don't build, but that you can't stand when someone else (AI, or human) builds it?

Myself, I dislike Great Library when the AI builds it - and I never build it myself (SP). There's nothing more annoying than the 'XXXXX acquire YYYYYY from the Great Library' message, after researching a new science.

Pyramids is a close second. Great Wall, I just laugh at.

	06-06-2003 08:16									#2
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Definitely the Great Library. Which is why I research knowledge of Universities as quickly as possible ...

Gatekeeper

	06-06-2003 09:18									#3
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I love it when my key civ gets the Great Library.

UN gets my vote as the most aggravating AI wonder, especially under a representative government.

	06-06-2003 12:34									#4
	Re: What's the one wonder that causes you the most trouble? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Myself, I dislike Great Library when the AI builds it - and I never build it myself (SP). There's nothing more annoying than the 'XXXXX acquire YYYYYY from the Great Library' message, after researching a new science.

Modify the effect of the GL by giving tech to the Library owner (they will get it anyway) before you make gifts elsewhere. This will enhance your standing with the GL civ and may result in more tribute or presents if allied.

I dislike the Manhattan Project.

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SG(2)

	06-06-2003 18:02									#5
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I also hate Manhattan Project but for the sake of diversity I will say Statue Of Libery. I don't change gov very offten so never really use the SOL's ability, But if the AI ges it they change Gov about every five turns.

	06-06-2003 18:42									#6
	Re: Re: What's the one wonder that causes you the most trouble? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Modify the effect of the GL by giving tech to the Library owner (they will get it anyway) before you make gifts elsewhere. This will enhance your standing with the GL civ and may result in more tribute or presents if allied. I dislike the Manhattan Project. --------------------- SG(2)

If I have MPE, I often gift techs to the GL owner - just as you say, gifting them to someone else is effectively a gift to the librarian. And when you can see what everyone else is researching, you can gift those techs before the tech arrives 'naturally'. If I don't have MPE, though, I may not be able to find the GL civ! On gigamaps, that happens at times.

And yes... Manhattan generally makes any endgame messy. Although I've found a spotless rep can prevent nukings... sometimes

@Zedd - that's annoying too - particularly because the civ with the Statue will switch to Fundy and immediately become a lifelong pain in the ***... and Fundy cities are more expensive to bribe than Republican ones, I think.

	06-06-2003 18:42									#7
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Darwin’s

I rarely play a game where Manhattan comes into play. I often build the GL, although lately, I’m building it less & aiming for faster Electricity more. With the Ai having the GL, it means that they are only six techs behind instead of twelve (I tend not to give techs out as often as the quick landers).

Occasionally I’ll miss out on a key SSC Wonder (such as CoL or Cope’s) due to a war, late start of a prime SSC location & attempting to cram in too many other wonders there (HG & Shake’s) -- so that is close to qualifying. I’m more upset at missing out than at the AI’s acquisition.

But for me it might be Darwin’s. I’m sort of neutral on this wonder -- the 1.1-1.99 extra techs cost 400 shields/8 camels and isn’t worth it if I have a decent boat chain/production/customer trade set-up in place. On the other hand, the Ai seems to nab this during those games where I’m too late getting going, have a couple of wars on the side & am not dealing as well with the raging hordes as I’d like. The techs chosen always seem to include Industrialization (that I was postponing to extend my KRC effects) & something else (maybe Commy as well, ending my MPE also too soon) then switching over to one or two other wonder races (WS & maybe UN), putting pressure on those wonders (which I also don’t place a high priority on, making those at risk as well).

Things are always darkest before they go completely black.

	07-06-2003 00:02									#8
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Bad boy, building GL!

	07-06-2003 01:08									#9
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I'm most frustrated by the GW when going for early conquest.

	07-06-2003 01:23									#10
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From a different perspective i also Hate it whe the AI goes all out to try to beat you to the Light house.

They allready have unsinkable Tireems and the movement rate usually depends on where the AI want to go. In early conquest games you allmost need LH to keep up.

	07-06-2003 13:56									#11
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Leo's is irritating occasionally on the AI side as they get a boost of it, so you need to step up your own development as they get a free upgrade (okay, they lose veteran status, but an awkward civ can benefit from it). In the early game GW is indeed annoying, but after all Manhattan Project is a troublesome trigger, so it has to be #1 in annoyance.

	09-06-2003 03:26									#12
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Manhattans.

Also annoying is being beaten to colossus in an early landing game, usually when you try and get better science wonders first.

	16-06-2003 06:21									#13
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Definitely Manhattan's, should the game last that long. I hate nukes in the game.

If the game won't reach the modern age, it's annoying dealing with the Great Wall and those pesky forced peace treaties. Especially knowing you'll get sneak attacked in a turn or two, anyway.

	20-06-2003 01:24									#14
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1. Great Library
2. Leonardo's Work Shop

	20-06-2003 15:10									#15
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I find in a OCC, harder to get astronomy and Copernicus' Observatory than to the collossus.

Bronze working is a tech along the path to Trade, while Astronomy can take some time to research.

By then, one annoying civ always selects astronomy early on, forcing me to get Marco Polo's to catch up.

	20-06-2003 20:54									#16
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Gardens, screws up my usual ICS strat.

	21-06-2003 13:37									#17
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Manhattans... but at that point of the game... since the AI has so kindly railroaded all their cities, a few spies can make sure that nobody ever builds it

	21-06-2003 22:50									#18
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Ming:

I wish I were so lucky. In my games, the AI *always* has the Manhattan Project being built in some distant part of its empire in a city not necessarily connected by rails, much less roads. Then again, I also have my spies subject to ZoC, which makes things even more difficult.

Gatekeeper

	22-06-2003 06:37									#19
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 I find in a OCC, harder to get astronomy and Copernicus' Observatory than to the collossus.

With six other Civs on different research paths Cope's can be the one that eludes you before trading has established a scientific domination. Marco's may allow access to acquire Mathematics (the civ with this tech - if it also has Mysticism - will usually be researching Astronomy) which is probably a wise swap. Astronomy is the "Joker" tech at this stage of the game so it will always be available for research.

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SG(2)

	22-06-2003 06:45									#20
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I would hate it if the AI built the SoL or Leo's since they're a big part of my strategy. But they don't, usually. It's mostly my friend I play MP that does it. It sucks when they get GL, though...or Manhatten, 'cause then I have to sit through a bunch of 'City got nuke attacked'(or whetever it says there) While they bomb a city that's protected by SDI, but doesn't actually have it...You'd think they'd figure it out...

BB

	22-06-2003 13:00									#21
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That's why we call that trick the nuke trap.

Putting your SDI in a city size one or two, guarding a much larger city will draw Nukes like a fly to honey.



What a waste of production.

	23-06-2003 17:57									#22
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In SP, it doesn't matter what wonders the AI has. At best it delays the inevitable a few turns.

In MP, any wonder an opponent gets can be annoying.

	26-06-2003 17:13									#23
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Pyramids - less money on granaries, further growth - more money
Leo -less money on units - more money
Adam Smith - more money
Statue of Liberty - can have a goiverment giving me more money
Mike, Bach - happyness - can give higher tax rate
I try to have Woman Suffrage as well as several other wonders, but these are really necessary

	27-06-2003 08:50									#24
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well in MP anyone who gets gardens is annoying....watching the ferrets WTLCD blows goats...

easily made up for with extended oracle.....

i don't like when the ai gets Suns Tzus on me.....i find this irritating, it means slowing down to build even more barracks....

	27-06-2003 17:39									#25
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The AI geting Suns doesn't bother be, because once at war the AI has a tendency to build barracks and walls anyway so I'll assume most attacking units are vets.

	01-07-2003 12:54									#26
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but i quite enjoy having suns to myself...GW is just a nuicsance more than anything else

	01-07-2003 23:36									#27
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Thank god for metalurgy , and the cannons that come along with it.

	02-07-2003 00:47									#28
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By the time that happens, its mop up for games med or smaller....

larger maps can be harded to win quickly.....

	02-07-2003 02:20									#29
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Yes distance=time.

	03-07-2003 04:00									#30
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Have you two played many Giga maps? Those are quite a different experience altogether.

Our latest sxn game required the Apollo Program just to find all the AI cities.