07-06-2003 01:31									#91
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Oh how true....'twas the evil Brits then, that dashed the Glorious Russian Revolution.....if not for them, *imagine* what a Communist Paradise we could all be living in!

-=Vel=-

	07-06-2003 01:34									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Without the US, the most likely outcome of WW1 would have been a stalemate in the West (maybe in slight disfavour of the Germans because their army was even more demoralized than the western ones), and a crushing of Austria-Hungary + Russia.

I'm with Boris. I fail to see how you can predict a stalemate much less one with a slight disfavor for the Germans considering that they had just knocked the Russians out of the war and the blockade you were refering to had no signifigant effect on the outcome of the war.

	07-06-2003 01:39									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion the Russian revolution had emerged before, think 1905 .

yeah, after a defeat in war (by britains ally, Japan ) and even then the revolution was defeated.

and had it won, it certainly wouldnt have been both socialist and democratic. Not in a country where the proletariat was such a tiny minority - it would have been one or the other (or possibly neither)

	07-06-2003 01:41									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion communism Stalin

beer or whiskey???

	07-06-2003 01:45									#95
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DD :

Even thought the Germans (+ Austrians) had a huge military advantage over Russia and were winning on the East Front, Russia's fastfall is first and foremost explained the revolution, which was due to internal problems, even though it was sparked by the war.
Saying that "the Germans had just knocked the Russians out of the war" is a gross exaggeration. The German military is far from being the only, even the main reason of such an outknocking.

The blockade had a significant effect on the Germans' morale. It provoked many shortages in Germany, from common consuption goods (what in Civ3 would be called "luxuries" ) to food. Germany had dire food problems by the end of the war, and the troops were far more demoralized than the French ones.
Besides, the revolts within the French military were mostly due to organisational problems (bad distribution of rations, lack of sleep, assholish officers), and they have been solved by adressing those problems, while the repression was very mild. I forgot if there were 19 or 47 executed. The morale of French troops became correctly steady again after the revolts, while the German morale was still tanking.

Besides, the Anglo-French alliance had the upper hand on Tank technology. Along as the boost of manpower that came with the Yanks, the Tanks made the western victory possible. And both are nearly equal factors when explaining the German humiliation.

	07-06-2003 01:45									#96
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quote: Setting aside the question of whether or not the British had a right to an empire in the first place (for the record, I don't think they did), or whether or not imperialism is wrong (IMO, it is), was the presence of the British positive or negative, overall, in terms of the development/"civilization" of regions such as Africa, India, Australia/NZ, US, Canada, etc.? Whaddya think?

I think Britian had right to Empire--nations will be nations, and if one can conquer the world, more power to 'em! (Though if they are an evil rogue state or an evil unrogue state we'd do best to try to stop them. )

However, as for the development, look at it this way--were it not for the British kickstart in all of its colonies, they might still have their natural cultures, or they might be flaming heaps of rubble (exaggeration on the horizon, sir! ). A "nation incubator" is a very good idea in that most of the nations it frees will grow to be ripe, old, harmonious states.

	07-06-2003 01:57									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor DD : Even thought the Germans (+ Austrians) had a huge military advantage over Russia and were winning on the East Front, Russia's fastfall is first and foremost explained the revolution, which was due to internal problems, even though it was sparked by the war. Saying that "the Germans had just knocked the Russians out of the war" is a gross exaggeration. The German military is far from being the only, even the main reason of such an outknocking. The blockade had a significant effect on the Germans' morale. It provoked many shortages in Germany, from common consuption goods (what in Civ3 would be called "luxuries" ) to food. Germany had dire food problems by the end of the war, and the troops were far more demoralized than the French ones. Besides, the revolts within the French military were mostly due to organisational problems (bad distribution of rations, lack of sleep, assholish officers), and they have been solved by adressing those problems, while the repression was very mild. I forgot if there were 19 or 47 executed. The morale of French troops became correctly steady again after the revolts, while the German morale was still tanking. Besides, the Anglo-French alliance had the upper hand on Tank technology. Along as the boost of manpower that came with the Yanks, the Tanks made the western victory possible. And both are nearly equal factors when explaining the German humiliation.

the mutiny was probably due to casualties. Every nations army went through some kind of collapse when casualties as a percentage of troops reached a certain level - in 1917 france had reached the level Italy did at the time of Caporetto (interestingly the Confederacy reached that level in 1864 - and promptly proceeded to collapse)

The French army was able to recover because the british army essentially relieved them in 1917 - taking a large portion of the front, and conducting all offensive operations.

That the US was unimportant to the allied victory is often based on the debilated state of the German army by the end of the spring offensive in 1918, even before large numbers of US troops were involved. However it seems unlikely Ludendorff would have launched the spring offensive if not for the need to knock France out of the war before the Americans arrived. Instead the Germans would likely have shifted to a defensive posture, and demobilized troops returned from the Russian front, to beef up their economy and fight the effects of blockade. Whether tank technology could have proven decisive in those circumstances is not clear, AFAIK.

	07-06-2003 02:02									#98
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quote: Even thought the Germans (+ Austrians) had a huge military advantage over Russia and were winning on the East Front, Russia's fastfall is first and foremost explained the revolution, which was due to internal problems, even though it was sparked by the war.

Yes... however, even with the new tactics leading to huge gains by the Russians, after a while, the gains slowed and even stopped. In the end, without a second revolution, I'm sure there would have resulted a stalemate, with German forces well within Russia.

quote: it seems unlikely Ludendorff would have launched the spring offensive if not for the need to knock France out of the war before the Americans arrived.

Very true. The main goal was to destroy the French before the fresh and plentiful American arrived. The arriving Americans also had a morale boost on the French and British troops in the area. The Americans brought some new hope to the line. That the allied forces would have superior numbers and maybe that would end this damned war.

I also believe that the arrival of the American stablized French troops... which mutinied probably because of the casulties and the deplorable conditions (especially in their sub-standard trenches).

	07-06-2003 02:05									#99
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Another factor to consider is to what extent would the German command have ravaged the newly acquired eastern lands to feed the Western army. Granted, it had probably been ravaged already by the Russians, but I bet the German leadership would have been willing to squeeze it to the max to provide any boost it could to its forces.

	07-06-2003 02:11									#100
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The French army was able to recover because the british army essentially relieved them in 1917 - taking a large portion of the front, and conducting all offensive operations.

Thanks for the info, I didn't know about that

quote: Instead the Germans would likely have shifted to a defensive posture, and demobilized troops returned from the Russian front, to beef up their economy and fight the effects of blockade. Whether tank technology could have proven decisive in those circumstances is not clear, AFAIK.

That's why I think WW1 without the Yanks would have been a stalemate in the West, rather than a victory. Everybody would have been fed up with the war shortly after 1918 anyways IMHO, probably in 1920 or so. The tactical advantage of the Anglo-French would have been useful in pressing Germany to make more concessions during the peace deals, but nothing like the Versailles humiliation of course. Heck, I'm not even sure Germany would have given back Alsace in such a stalemate.

	07-06-2003 02:14									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes... however, even with the new tactics leading to huge gains by the Russians, after a while, the gains slowed and even stopped. In the end, without a second revolution, I'm sure there would have resulted a stalemate, with German forces well within Russia.

I don't doubt the Russians would have lost even without a revolution. But the quickness of the fall is clearly explained by the revolutions. Had only military factors been in play, Russia would have hold quite a few more years.

	07-06-2003 02:15									#102
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Hold on?! Hold on!? How dare you! Russia had the Germans right where they wanted them! They were all set to mop up the floor with the pitifully equipped German army (Russian equipment of the era was vastly superior, you see), and then, just for grins, dismantle the Anglo/French armies before heading back home!

-=Vel=-

	07-06-2003 02:18									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Thanks for the info, I didn't know about that

i got it from Keegan, a Brit historian.

	07-06-2003 02:20									#104
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I'd call him a footie manager.

	07-06-2003 02:57									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Had the US not been involved, the Western stalemate would have been as such in slight disfavour of Germany, nothing like the Versailles humiliation indeed.

So even Versailles was the US fault!!

(Sorry Spiffor, couldn't resist.)

	07-06-2003 04:45									#107
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British Empire didnt need America, they had INDIA. At the time a much better prize

	07-06-2003 05:09									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Tolls WW1...my fave... The British army of 1918 was a considerably better force than previously. If morale was so low then how come we managed to stand against the German assaults in March and April? Similarly with the French. The restructuring of allied command under Foch changed the war far more than the appearance of the US.

How do you explain the fact the entire 5th British Army was wiped out until German's "Fruehjahrs Offensive" in 1918. They picked the Brits not because they were good. Ludendorff's crucial mistake was to open a second front against the French so you guys caught some breadth meanwhile. Had the Germans kept pounding at the British force, they might have won.

quote: Finally a stalemate in the West would have been a disaster for Germany, which is why they tried to win outright in 1918. A stalemate would have ended with a German revolution in 1919 through starvation, even with the Ukraine, never mind the shakiness of Austria-Hungary.

A stalemate meant a victory for the Germans. Their conquest in the East was more than enough to supply their food. Socialists would never have a chance.

quote: As for unlimited weapons, the entente provided all its own weaponry, and a lot of the US ones as well. To the extent that the British and French forces had to cut the number of horses per supply carriage so that they could give the distinctly ill-equipped US army some.

In 1914, the US had 40% of the world's total industrial production and at least twice the population of Germany. With an ally like that, the Entente had essentially unlimited weapon supply compared to the Central Powers.

	07-06-2003 05:17									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor You mean, by the time the Brits actively entered the conflict ? Without the US, the most likely outcome of WW1 would have been a stalemate in the West (maybe in slight disfavour of the Germans because their army was even more demoralized than the western ones), and a crushing of Austria-Hungary + Russia. Without the Brits, the war would have been won by Germany, but France would have put up a serious fight, and the territory loss for France wouldn't have been too terrible. Actually, France would have lost because of inferior navy and too high mobility of German troops on sea.

I meant that Germany would certainly win WW1 if the US and UK were not involved.

I also don't think that the French would put up much fight. The reason: Schlieffen Plan. With the BEF threatening on German right flank, the German forces were forced to deploy more forces than expected to cover their flank and thus gave the French time to regroup.

It won't matter in the end though: the French would have been bled dry at Verdun.

	07-06-2003 05:21									#110
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Of course it was good. It's the White Man's Burden to bring Commerce, Christianity and Civilisation to the savages, and that the British Empire did.

	07-06-2003 05:22									#111
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Yes, just look at how civilized, wealthy and Christian all the former African colonies are!

	07-06-2003 05:25									#112
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1. Where is Niue?

2. Boris, please. We are just sending 1400 men there to warrant exactly those values

	07-06-2003 05:27									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion 2. Boris, please. We are just sending 1400 men there to warrant exactly those values

Not sure what you're trying to say, mein Herr, but Congo isn't a former British colony!

	07-06-2003 05:28									#114
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well if they still were colonies things could have been different

	07-06-2003 05:28									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Yes, just look at how civilized, wealthy and Christian all the former African colonies are!

That happens because the imperialist powers failed to live up to their ideals.

It's more an issue of competence and commitment, rather than intention.

	07-06-2003 05:29									#116
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niue is somewhere in the south pacific

	07-06-2003 05:29									#117
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The point was what white man did in Africa, not what the Brits did. Read before think, think before post.

	07-06-2003 05:30									#118
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And Ganger-Olf was being ironic anyway.

	07-06-2003 05:30									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion The point was what white man did in Africa, not what the Brits did. Read before think, think before post.

The thread is about what the Brits did, and that's what gangerwolf was referring to. So you think next time! And learn the proper use of "warrant!"

	07-06-2003 05:31									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Repeat after Serb: Russia is the mightiest nation the planet has ever seen. Their leaders were all inspired geniuses, there have NEVER been any mass deaths or persecutions of Rus citizens by their enlightened leaders (all American Hollywood hype, cos you know....we have nothing better to do), EVERY modern invention stems from Mother Russia, Russian equipment is, bar none, the BEST in the world....everything from commercial airplanes to tanks to rifles to toasters. That's why we se so many Russian brand names on our shelves, you see, and why so many European airlines use those Russian-made jets! All hail Mother Russia!!!!! -=Vel=- PS: Oh, and in a similar vein, the USA really IS the Great Satan, responsible for every ill the world has known since about 1776. Every time a world leader catches a cold or has an attack of gas....yep....that would be the fault of the pigs in the USA....