07-06-2003 05:33									#121
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guarantee?

BTW, we brought many good things to the hereros in German-south-west, too

	07-06-2003 05:37									#122
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Ah, yes...care to hear about German atrocities against the natives in their colonial possessions?

	07-06-2003 05:40									#123
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I wonder where all those rebels in central africa come from. it's like burundi and ruanda are filled with billions of people and now and again a few million of them decide to invade neighbouring countries, have some civil war and kill each other.

or maybe not.

	07-06-2003 05:51									#124
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OK how about this: If it hadn't been for the British Empire Australia would probably be ruled by some Indonesian warlord instead of being part of Western civilisation. And Canada would be 100% French-speaking.

	07-06-2003 06:57									#125
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A few things. Russia was bound to colla[pse no matter what happened. the economy was in shambles by the time Kerensky took power, and Russia could simply not continue to fight at the point effectively. Maybe further German and Austrio-Hunagrian gains would have been low, but Russia had no ability to take back anything. But the point is that Germany and Austria were also on the verge of revolution. Sorry LOM, but the Ukraine could not have feed Germany and Austria, not given the fractured politics and chaos of the area. By late 1917 the internal situation in Germany was coming unhinged, and the same for the Austrians (and the Ottomans, of course). A collapse of the Ottomans would have meant greater pressure on the Austrians and Bulgarians in the Balkans, and this, plus renewed Italian attacks would have inevitably lead to an Austiran collpase, and once that Happened, germany would have been alone.The threat of US troops forced the Germans to launch their 1918 spring offensive, but when it was broken and stopped by the French and UK (with some US participation in some small but important fronts), the end had arrived for Germany. The Summer 1918 offensives (where the main US military involvement was) only speeded up the inevitable collapse of the Central powers.


As for the brits: The Russians would never have taken India. They wuld hacve had a hell of a time getting through Afghanistan to begin with, and Persia survived all right, loosng only Azerbaijan to Russia. The whole great game was more a "reality" in the map rooms of London and Moscow than on the ground in Central Asia. The Overland route from Russia to india is treacherous.

	09-06-2003 12:16									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Gotcha sucker!

quote: So, the US wouldn't exist without British colonists? What about Spanish, French, Dutch, German and Irish colonists? Don't they ever form breakaway colonies?

IIRC, they declared independence from British Empire, not from anyone else.

quote: The Taliban would not exist without the USSR. Action and reaction.

The Taliban was formed years after we leaved Afghanistan.

quote: But to BLAME the USSR for the formation of the Taliban is a mistake.

Of course, all credit for this goes to CIA. It was CIA who sponsored OBL and gave millions of $$$ to him, not KGB.

	09-06-2003 13:11									#127
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LotM:
"How do you explain the fact the entire 5th British Army was wiped out until German's "Fruehjahrs Offensive" in 1918. They picked the Brits not because they were good. Ludendorff's crucial mistake was to open a second front against the French so you guys caught some breadth meanwhile. Had the Germans kept pounding at the British force, they might have won."

A continued offecsive was not possible against the British...it doesn't matter that the Fifth disintegrated, what matters is that the Germans were incapable of continuing on the Somme. Similarly at Ypres. The nature of warfare at the time meant that troops limited to warfare by foot and horse are stuffed when it comes to advancing.

There were enough reserves in Britain to make up for the losses sustained, reserves which had been deliberately held back by Lloyd George (though he didn't admit it) in order to hold back Haig from his planned offensives for 1918...until we had sufficient tank forces. Continued pounding would simply have cost the Germans heavily, and left them open to the inevitable counterattack. Once the Somme and Ypres had failed they were out of luck.

"A stalemate meant a victory for the Germans. Their conquest in the East was more than enough to supply their food. Socialists would never have a chance."

So you might think, but yields from the Ukraine were non-existent in 1918, and future yields were likely to be even worse than those in WW2, when Germany secured significantly less from the Ukraine during occupation than they had gained through trade.

"In 1914, the US had 40% of the world's total industrial production and at least twice the population of Germany. With an ally like that, the Entente had essentially unlimited weapon supply compared to the Central Powers."

Which doesn't change the fact that that weapon supply was not tapped in 1918.

	09-06-2003 14:13									#128
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Serb, would the Taliban exist without the Soviet Union?

YES OR NO.

Because that's the argument you are using for the British Empire causing the existence of the US. It's a bogus argument

Why can't you admit your own country fvcked up?

Oh, I forgot. Russians don't make mistakes.

Hope you have a nice holiday in Chechnya. I hear they like sending presents to Moscow.

	09-06-2003 14:45									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Serb, would the Taliban exist without the Soviet Union? YES OR NO. Because that's the argument you are using for the British Empire causing the existence of the US. It's a bogus argument

Pobably NO. No one can tell you for sure, because no one can turn back time and check it. I hope you feel better now.

quote: Why can't you admit your own country fvcked up? Oh, I forgot. Russians don't make mistakes.

Sure we make... but admitting of mistakes is different case however.

quote: Hope you have a nice holiday in Chechnya. I hear they like sending presents to Moscow.

Hope you have a nice holiday in North Ireland. I heard guys from IRA like to send presends too. Have fun.

	09-06-2003 14:56									#130
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Probably NO? Fair enough, hypothetical - but you started the hypotheticals. Enough said.

quote: Originally posted by Serb Hope you have a nice holiday in North Ireland. I heard guys from IRA like to send presends too. Have fun.

Erm... apart from maybe 4? dustbin bombs by Continuity (AKA Real) IRA they've actually stuck to the ceasefire for last 5 years. Negotiations continue - but active hostilities are suspended (and unlikely to start after 9/11 - IRA trying to get away from "terrorist" label).

Anyway, I'm too old for such a holiday. Purely voluntary in the UK, and only job I could do in the Army now is cook. Hardly frontline stuff.

EDIT: Oh yeah, was also RPG attack on MI6 building. Great headline grabber, but hardly devastating like Chechens (Chechens fighting in their own country I can support - Chechen's butchering innocent Muscovites I have a problem with).

Oddly enough, that RPG probably came out of Bosnia - although not really possible to be sure.

	09-06-2003 14:59									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Tolls Serb: "And this war wasn't a major factor for victory of Bolshevick's revolution." Bull...the continuation of the war by Kerensky was the main factor for Bolshevik success.

The war was a catalyst, but not the sole reagent for collapse of Russian Empire.

quote: They wouldn't have had a cat in hells chance if he'd pulled out of the war.

Why?
Russia had a lot of social and economic problems and those problems started much earlier than the Great war. Bolshevicks had a lot of support because majority of population lived in terrible conditions and tzar didn't make a single thing to improve the situation. If there was no war, I doubt he would started to solve social problems. More probably he would prefer to opress masses which means that bolsheviks still had a lot of support from population.

	09-06-2003 15:14									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Repeat after Serb: Russia is the mightiest nation the planet has ever seen. Their leaders were all inspired geniuses, there have NEVER been any mass deaths or persecutions of Rus citizens by their enlightened leaders (all American Hollywood hype, cos you know....we have nothing better to do), EVERY modern invention stems from Mother Russia, Russian equipment is, bar none, the BEST in the world....everything from commercial airplanes to tanks to rifles to toasters. That's why we se so many Russian brand names on our shelves, you see, and why so many European airlines use those Russian-made jets! All hail Mother Russia!!!!! -=Vel=- PS: Oh, and in a similar vein, the USA really IS the Great Satan, responsible for every ill the world has known since about 1776. Every time a world leader catches a cold or has an attack of gas....yep....that would be the fault of the pigs in the USA....

p.s. How could you forget to add that we launched first spaceman?

	09-06-2003 15:41									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy This I find unbelievable. Didn't the Soviets have a different railway gauge?

Had and still has. It's a headache for any invader who's planning to capture Russia quickly.
So, not only wheels of those trains should have been replaced, but also American trains weren't designed for use in Russian climate. Which limited use of those trains, I guess. Also I guess that his 92% figure is complete bs.

quote: Again, not in a position to challenge. I suspect these figures are not fully checkable - first you have to work out how much left, how much arrived, and how much of the relavant 5 year plan was bs.

And I suspect that his figures were pulled out of someone's as$. I wounder where David Floyd is. He has some funny theories about precentge of American tanks in Red army during battle of Moscow.

	09-06-2003 15:56									#134
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"The war was a catalyst, but not the sole reagent for collapse of Russian Empire. "

Ah...I'm not saying that the empire would not have collapsed, and the monarchy in all likelihood being ousted. What I am saying is that the Bolsheviks would not have been the winners. They really were not all that popular, and it took Kerensky's inability to see what needed doing to give them their opportunity...

Remember, the Bolsheviks were the minority part of the left wing split, and remained so through 1917 and into the civil war, until they'd managed to infiltrate everyone else...a tactic they would continue to use abroad with varying degrees of success.