06-06-2003 16:45									#1
	What do we do? Inflate your Upload Space

OK - I see 4 options.

jon's vassal state option as outlined in Moves or the GS thread.

A surrender where we give up substantial territory. ie the land south of Elipolis. This could be done in conjunction with a an 'exodus' like move to Legos minor.

(this is the option I will propose to GS today)

Exodus, as I have outlined in another thread.

Continue fighting with significant support from the other civs. I know RP is committed. I suspect GoW will be too. I have written NeuD. And will be writing Lego a long letter today. Although I did chat with Nimitz last night.

Ok - what do you think?

	06-06-2003 20:08									#2
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Yes, perform an exodus and (hopefully) end up with a two-part empire.

	06-06-2003 21:59									#3
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no don't

than we are at at least two people's mercy instead of one

it leaves us less options

yes exploration and growth anywhere possible (so yes build there)

but don't give up any territory we currently have

you can't build an empire without territory

but sovereignty can be taken back instantly

Jon Miller

	06-06-2003 22:01									#4
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if we split and focus on the new land also, we will end up being a vassal of both lego and GS (the two best natinos)

if we stay where we are, we are only a vassal of GS and we ahve evrything we have built so far

if we leave, we have nothing and am a vassal of Lego

I know what I think is best

Jon Miller

	07-06-2003 01:14									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Jon :

We shouldnt be simply vassals. We should offer all our efforts to let someone win the game(since we have no chance).

I'd rather move to some area with good land in Legoland, build all the infranstructure from scratch with Lego's help and be complete allies with them helping them to win the game.

We will definetely not help GS to win the game, so if we stay on Estonia we'll really be only vassals on a useless patch of land.

	07-06-2003 01:17									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

So basically what I propose is that we should get an agreement with Lego, start with the Galley and Settler building, then raze everything we can to the ground to make sure GS gets nothing and depart.

I'd rather see us die in the sea than be Vassals of GS.

	07-06-2003 01:46									#7
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well my idea was to be vassals of GS until what time they were hurting form a fight, than stab them in the back

but I guess we have not been to successful with stabs

and GS will be concerned

Jon Miller

	07-06-2003 03:08									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I concur with Eli - except let's not fall into the same situation that Trip did - razing everything before they had a new foothold on another landmass.

	07-06-2003 03:10									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yeah, let's prepare a nice set of defenses in Elipolis and all over our coasts, and in the meanwhile head for Lego.

	07-06-2003 03:10									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Oh, and if we turn over Dissidentville to GS, be sure to sell off the barracks and the temple (even though they wouldn't get the temple anyway, at least we can squeeze a few gold pieces out of the structure).

	07-06-2003 03:10									#11
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Does Lego even knows about this?

	07-06-2003 03:13									#12
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I believe that Beta mentioned that yes, they are aware of this. Now watch Lego set us up on a desert island.

	07-06-2003 06:31									#13
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I am waiting to hear from vondrack about Legos minor. It is actually pretty good looking territory. You can see it on the world map.

I like the idea of a peace - we keep North Estonia - and set up shop in Legos minor. It looks like a long way away. But in a couple of techs it will be real close. It is actually just a few turns sail EAST from where we are. It might even be worth risking a galley to see if there is a sea crossing.

And I am not up for being vassals. Call it an emotional response - but GS bugs me enough that I would rather go out of the game fighting than do that. Now - if the plan was to be the quiet vassal state until we could stab them in the back again - then count me in.

	07-06-2003 07:18									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

yah

the plan was to stab them again when the opportunity presents itself (I want to still have a plan for global domination)

the thing is that we will be vassals of someone

emotions are against GS, but if we can keep the most territory that way.... (however, I don't know how much territory we can get from lego, also I am not sure how much time it would take to build up infrastructure)

I told GS that the deal that you sent them had not been completely agreed upon by Vox yet

Jon Miller

	07-06-2003 08:00									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think I would rather keep fighting and leave

or become GSs Vassal

so the first oen maybe?

it could go for a long time, even though we will have to split our efforts

Jon Miller

	07-06-2003 13:13									#16
	Tired of ads?

We are still getting high corruption south of Eliopolis aren't we? So the exodus idea sounds fine with me. We can surrender land south of Eliopolis.

I don't like Vassal state very much. That is a last resort.

	07-06-2003 16:34									#17
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we will be the vassal state of someone no matter what

I am agreeing more and mroe that it would be better to be one of Lego though

Jon Miller

	08-06-2003 13:18									#18
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yes

	09-06-2003 13:46									#19
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well

exodus and surrender land work well together

so Vox has spoken

we should prepare the obvious response to GS here

please give a little time before the FA for GS sends it

Jon Miller

	09-06-2003 17:04									#20
	Remove this text

The exodus can start immediately. A settler is produced this turn. We have 3 galleys. I suggest we send two - with a settler - a worker - and two units - one to guard the city and one to explore.

Sound OK?

	09-06-2003 17:37									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

North over the top of Bob looks like the way to go. A galley from Wittlich City can get there 17 or 18 turns.

Once astronomy is available - the trip due east will be much quicker.

	12-06-2003 05:30									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

Now that I have finished reading the threads I voted for exodus. If we are going to be a vassal state I would rather be vassal to Lego than anyone else. I would still like to find a way to win with my second choice being to help Lego win. As far as I am concerned ND can take a hike. GoW talks big but provides little. RP was OK until they tried to extort Lego to pay for iron for us.