06-06-2003 17:05									#1
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I'm trying to have a peaceful experience so I haven't been to war yet (Egypt just got electricity). I'm in 4th place tech wise and probably 7th militarily (12 nations, it turns out 4 of them ended up on another continent far far away and Egypt ate Rome about 50 turns ago) Egypt and Greece are always 1-2 techs ahead of me and I have been buying tech from them but it's costing me my entire income (350+ gpt) so I can't ever get ahead on my own.

Should I just stop buying from them and research on my own even though I'll be researching tech they already have or just keep buying? Just wondering if I can ever catch up now if I start my own research? (And it would stop giving them gpt which might slow down their research, but that might cause them to declare war... which might not be that bad since I haven't even had my GA yet!!!! But, then again, they might just send me the way of the Romans...)

It's just too difficult a decision for my little girlie brain!

	06-06-2003 17:17									#2
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you should look into espionage, cause if you are making 350 gpt then you could just steal the techs you need. also what civ are you?

espionage is actually really effective though slightly risky and pricey. however if you have that kind of an income then in about ten turns you should have more than enough to do this.

however you said you want a peaceful game, with espionage you run the risk of going to war.

good luck!

	06-06-2003 17:29									#3
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Oh, yeah, I'm playing Carthage (heard it was the best for builder games)

Before PTW I've never suceeded with espionage so I never really thought about trying it that way - perhaps I will.

Another quick Q then - if I steal from Egypt which is very far away from me and they declare war, do their MPPs actually come into effect if I don't attack them on their land? (Since I won't bother heading down there - I'll wait for them to come get me while I fill my cities full of good defenders...)

Why do I have to be at work when there's a perfectly good game of Civ at home waiting to be played?????
Cough... cough... is that an illness I feel coming on?

	06-06-2003 19:56									#4
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You are playing Carthage, researching (or buying?) electricity and You havent had your GA yet????

First off the MPP is only triggered by an attack in an enemy territory so you must use that to your advantage.

Second, the reason you are behind is most likely due to the lack of a GA. Your GA should have been triggered long ago ( I try to time my GA to happen right after I switch to republic) with your numidian merc. I hope you still have a few of those baby's around because trying to trigger your GA by building wonders will be extremely difficult (at least without a GL)

Bottom line you have to go to war! The best way to go IMO is a good old world war. Ally with a top ranking civ against another top civ. Then let them bring all of the others into the war while you defend your territory and build up your strength. If you have a few mercs lying around try to use them to knock off weak or damaged units to trigger your GA. Also you should have a couple of MPPs of your own with some of the less agressive civs.

	06-06-2003 21:13									#5
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Mad Bomber
You are playing Carthage, researching (or buying?) electricity and You havent had your GA yet????


Yep... I wasn't kidding when I said I hadn't had a single war yet, not even the hint of one. I got a couple demands for tribute (way back when before Rome got eaten for being too sassy) which I called them on and nope, no war declared. Only attacks I had were a handful of barbs in the first few turns. No kidding! I've tried to get a couple wonders to trigger it but Egypt beat me to them twice. Perhaps because I only have 8 cities but at least 8 military for each one and I trade every turn 'cause I need tech and I have 2 luxs with duplicates, they have left me alone. (Egypt, Greece, Korea, China and Japan are on my continent but Egypt is the farthest away since all the others are between them and me.)

But, what the heck... got lots of my NM still (since I never lost any) so I'll just leave them in the front cities backed up with some upgraded units then I'll start pinching some tech from the Egyptians and see what sort of world mess I can make.

Oh, if I steal tech and they declare war because of it, am I in the wrong (ie do I get the penalty for breaking a gpt agreement, or do they?) If I wait for a gpt agreement to end with Egypt then steal tech and Egypt declares war and has a MPP with Greece with whom I have a current gpt agreement and Greece declares war, who's at fault for breaking that gpt? If it's me I guess I'll have to wait until my deals expire 'cause I need to trade for lux with the celts and the only thing they seem to want is gpt.

Man, you'd think it was brain surgery I was trying to complete!

	08-06-2003 03:03									#6
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mimi:

Sounds like you have a grasp of what needs to be done. Yes, you will get a rep hit if they are the ones to declare war and the Ai doesn't take rep hits as the AI to AI deals never take reps into consideration. However being Allied with an AI will alleviate (but not erase) the rep hit with the allied civ. Also rep hits do differ in severity due to how many deals you have when they were broken and the length of the deals that remain. MPPs are different it is not triggered by a declaration of war, but by an actual attack on a unit in its own territory. Triggering an MPP in your favor is actually easy, as it simply acts on the first nation to be the aggressor.

This said, my main advice to you is to seek either an MPP or outright alliance with Greece against Egypt as this will lessen the amount of research that both of them will complete and will focus their building patterns more to the military. Finally you mentioned that you were 4th militarily out of 11 remaining civ's. There has to be a few weak civ's out there that you could "convert" into your territory while the big boys (Egypt and Greece) duke it out; Korea or China, perhaps?

One last thought you should only keep a few NM's around, just enough that you can make sure you can get a win out of one of them, remember only the first win is important, after that they are just cannon fodder.

	08-06-2003 07:07									#7
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If you're trying to catch up to the AI in techs then you really need to resist buying techs for gpt -- you lose current income and the AI increases its income. As painful as it might feel, just set your research to 0%, let the gold pile up in your treasury, and then buy techs for lump sums. Only when you've managed to reach tech parity (or nearly so) should you turn on your own research -- then go full blast. As soon as you acquire a tech that one or more of the leaders don't already have, sell it for as much gpt as you can, to as many civs as can pay anything close to market for it. It may be tough to do at this point if you've reached the "Industrial Corridors" -- during the Industrial Age, the techs branch into two distinct corridors (beginning with Electricity and The Corporation). Getting a tech lead in either branch should put you in a commanding position -- but failing to secure the lead can put you into a static position until almost the Modern Age.

The AI isn't very good at managing a tech lead, and if you suck up and buy in lump sums, then turn the research on full blast, you can often slingshot into the lead -- bleeding dry the AIs' current income through gpt deals then naturally follows. If you continue to pay gpt for techs, you'll never catch up -- AIs will have science at 100% with a surplus (thanks to your ongoing payments).

Catt

EDIT: Depending on the situation, you may still be able to grab the Theory of Evolution before an AI -- if so, do it, and your tech backwardness should disappear with a little careful management.