07-06-2003 09:03									#61
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I see no justice in the world-there is no point to be good.

There's no such thing as "good" either, but let's not quibble over definitions.

I am "good" to other folk because I think it encourages other folk to be good to me. All the religious dumbasses have regurgitated this principle, so I think it's fairly obvious.

Altruism is an emergent property of social interactions much like evolution is an emergent property of biological ones.

Another reason to be good is that's it's generally easier. All right, not littering is a bit hard, but it becomes a habit rather quickly.

	07-06-2003 09:06									#62
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quote: treat good people like you would want to be treated;

Agathon:

Matthew 5:46

"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?"

	07-06-2003 09:15									#63
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Lorizael:

quote: God is in faith, and because faith ignores logic and reason, there is absolutely no way to debate with this person,

Agreed. Certain portions of faith should be amenable to reason, such as the existence of God.

quote: The second way in which a person will prove God is by ascribing seemingly supernatural events to God. At first this appears to be reasonable; we don't know what did it, so God must have done it.

Proofs outside of scripture generally rely on this principle by offering more evidence for God, saying that it is more likely for God to exist, than for God to not exist. "Supernatural" by definition falls outside the realm of human understanding.

However, one will also assert that things we do see in nature point towards God as a designer. Many things fit together much more nicely than chance would seem to provide.

quote: This does not disprove God.

Indeed. You've polished off two straw men. What about the validity of scripture as a historical record, setting aside the question of divine revelation? A comparison of any other book with scripture, shows that we should have vastly more confidence in the events of the Bible as true than for anything else we know.

	07-06-2003 09:25									#64
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St. Leo

quote: Another reason to be good is that's it's generally easier. All right, not littering is a bit hard, but it becomes a habit rather quickly.

quote: There's no such thing as "good"

So why is littering bad?

quote: All the religious dumbasses have regurgitated this principle,

quote: Altruism is an emergent property of social interactions much like evolution is an emergent property of biological ones.

That was quick. You have that memorised or what?

	07-06-2003 12:16									#65
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Marduk is not a god. it's a low quality metal band

	07-06-2003 13:26									#66
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nihilism does have its good points.

since the world sucks, though, just try to have the best time you can, and be someone you can be proud of being. you are your choices, and even though it's worth nothing in the end, at least you'll feel accomplished. it's like sysiphus, in a way.

	07-06-2003 16:59									#67
	Re: Is there any reason to be a good person? I see no justice in the world Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Vesayen In a GOOD society, the reason for being good is also obvious-if your nice to your brother, he will be nice to you.

Are you expecting a reward, a return, for being good? Then what difference is between good and evil? I don't think good should be a mean to bring you rewards.

In OUR society I have finally reached the point where I see no re ason to be "good".

quote: Originally posted by Vesayen The highschool im graduating from later this week is a great example..... I never cheated, I worked fairly hard. In every test I have EVER taken in that school, I have seen people cheat, at least 15-20% of the class, if not more.

How many of them will go through university intact? It's true, evil is its own downfall. Trust me, anybody who gets caught cheating or plagarising in any reptuable university is going to be dealt with severely.

quote: Originally posted by Vesayen I think its obvious who wins in the end-the one who goes to college for almost free.

But he's not going to graduate, unless he turns himself around.

	07-06-2003 17:02									#68
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Including the table of the nations, and the Tower of Babel?

Clearly, these are just tales.

Are you saying that the Chinese and the Aztecs all had been speaking the same language before the Tower of Babel fell down?

	08-06-2003 13:59									#69
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quote: Are you saying that the Chinese and the Aztecs all had been speaking the same language before the Tower of Babel fell down?

UR:

Does it make sense to consider people divided into groups such as the 'chinese' or the 'aztecs' at this point in time? For sure, the Aztecs do not exist, as a seperate language, and very likely the chinese do not as well.

	08-06-2003 14:01									#70
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I've been thinking the same thing lately.

Most of this stems from all the law suits. Especially the dishonest ones against catholic priests. Now we know they did some bad things, but I cannot believe all the people suing catholic priests have all been molested.

Sometimes I think, why don't I get on this action?

	08-06-2003 14:17									#71
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Does it make sense to consider people divided into groups such as the 'chinese' or the 'aztecs' at this point in time?

Why not?

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 For sure, the Aztecs do not exist, as a seperate language, and very likely the chinese do not as well.

What timeframe we are talking about?

	08-06-2003 15:31									#72
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quote: What timeframe we are talking about?

Timeframe of the Tower of Babylon section and the table of nations, Genesis 9-10.

Likely around 5000 years ago. Well before the aztecs enter the scene.

	08-06-2003 19:35									#73
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Timeframe of the Tower of Babylon section and the table of nations, Genesis 9-10. Likely around 5000 years ago. Well before the aztecs enter the scene.

5000 years ago, there was certainly a large division in the cultures and languages in the world. We have writing from over 5000 years ago from Egypt, Sumeria and other ME societies that show they had different languages. These languages had been evolving differently for thousands of years before that. Keep in mind that by 9000 BCE the world was more or less completely colonized by homo sapiens, minus some South Pacific islands. The antecedents of Aztec and Chinese (Shang) culture were well in place by 3000 BCE.

At any rate, the Tower of Babel is completely at odds with linguistic theory and what we know of how language evolved. Have you read any linguistic theory outside of Creationist sources?

	08-06-2003 19:45									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The antecedents of Aztec and Chinese (Shang) culture were well in place by 3000 BCE.

Archeological digs confirmed that the Chinese entered agricultural society at ~5000 BCE.

	08-06-2003 21:42									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Here's a good operating principle: treat good people like you would want to be treated; take account of their wants and needs from their perspective. You can't really have a proper human relationship without doing this.

Good.

quote: As for the deeply selfish people you encounter: treat them as you would treat an animal, because that's how they'll treat you. Do not give them even an inch, or they will take a mile.

I disagree. People have the capacity for change. Bartolomeo de las Casas was a slaver before he became a priest and fought for the cause of the Indians of Hispaniola. Andrew Carnegie was a right bastard to his employees, but then sepnt his remaining years building libraries and schools for their children. Malcolm X was a pimp, buglar, and drug dealer who cleaned up his act and became someone who made people's lives better.

When I was studying hate groups so many years ago, the story that spoke to me the most was a Klansman who was forced to work with a Black woman for a reason I now forget. Over the month of working closely with her, he came to realize that her problems were the same as his problems, her concerns for her children were the same as his. He became ashamed of his ideology and quit the Klan, stopped being a white supremicist.

If you treat others as human beings, they may not treat you the same way, but they might. I once heard a quote that has stuck with me. "The best way to destroy your enemy is to make him your friend."

Veyasen, what matters most in the world is your relationships with other people. At the end of your life, when you're looking back, would you rather rather be surrounded by your friends or your money?

If cheaters really bother you, you might consider a career in law enforcement. After all, what are criminals but cheaters?

If you want to make people's lives better, be a volunteer. Big Brother, Big Sister or Little Brother, Little Sister (a simlar program but to help the elderly) programs are everywhere. Become a union organizer, organize to clean up your community, help out at an animal shelter. Donate money to a woman's shelter. Volunteer at a homeless shelter sometime other than Thanksgiving or Christmas. Most organizations are begging for help.

	08-06-2003 23:39									#76
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Or you can be like the Epicurians, and try to live for pleasure.

As long as one doesn't confuse it with Hedonism. Epicureans didn't see the pleasure in temporary fulfilment of physical desire, but rather as a maximization of a pleasure that lies in a psychological and physical equilibrium and is not subject of emotional tides.
Epicureans are closer to Stoics than to hedonists. Popular tradition did not do justice to this philosophy.

	09-06-2003 04:29									#77
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The way I see it you are your own justice, i.e., you should be more concerned with treating others justly and compassionately than asking for justice and compassion from them.

	09-06-2003 04:41									#78
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why does talk about morals, when Americans are involved, always end up being about religion?

	09-06-2003 07:07									#79
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Because Americans still have religious principles, you sheep-screwing euro-trash.

	09-06-2003 13:42									#80
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quote: The antecedents of Aztec and Chinese (Shang) culture were well in place by 3000 BCE.

As were the antecedents to the Irish and Canadian cultures.

quote: At any rate, the Tower of Babel is completely at odds with linguistic theory and what we know of how language evolved.

Boris:

These assume no worldwide flood occurred. The Babel story comes after the flood has narrowed the number of people so that all survivors would speak a common language.

Mind you, my date is certainly not definite, relying upon a closed geneology, which is not necessarily a safe bet, even within biblical interpretation.

quote: Have you read any linguistic theory outside of Creationist sources?

Not my area of specialty, although I have done some work with etymology.

UR:

quote: Archeological digs confirmed that the Chinese entered agricultural society at ~5000 BCE.

Any indications of the language spoken?

	09-06-2003 16:06									#81
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'Is there any reason to being good? I see no justice in the world'

Read Republic by Plato

	10-06-2003 02:11									#82
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I can still highly recommend nihilism. And thanks for calling us bastards.

	10-06-2003 02:51									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Because Americans still have religious principles, you sheep-screwing euro-trash.

hahahahaha

THAT is my new sig!

	10-06-2003 02:54									#84
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you have no sig.

	10-06-2003 05:09									#85
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 So why is littering bad?

Because I don't like it. It is a matter of personal preference.

I'd call it part of my "Social Contract", but I dislike Rousseau enough to not use his expression.

The Sieve of Societies ensures that Social Contracts that don't work get discarded. Idiocy and Genius ensure that Social Contracts continuously mutate.

quote: That was quick. You have that memorised or what?

Yes, by now I must have proven my inability to come up with elaborate sentence structures on the fly and to improv philosophical statements.