06-06-2003 21:04									#1
	Is there any reason to be a good person? I see no justice in the world Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I'll preface this by saying I was raised Jewish, but am almost 99% sure God dosent exist......

Today is the day my idealism died.

I see no justice in the world-there is no point to be good.

With God the reason for being good is obvious-he says so.

In a GOOD society, the reason for being good is also obvious-if your nice to your brother, he will be nice to you.

In OUR society I have finally reached the point where I see no re ason to be "good".

On the highest scales of our society, most of the worlds population lives under oppresive despots and goverments who treat them like property and dont care if they live or die.

Going to first world countries, the value of most people is raised a bit-but now it is only by unitilitarianism..... the value of people is just by how usefull they are-and in a country like the U.S. where roughly 270 million people live-no one cares if people on an individual person by person basis are screwed, or wronged, or killed-the average citizen is phased by it, so the goverment of course dosent care.


Remember Enron? Quite possibly the biggest circle-jerk ever in America corporate history and the biggest systamatic screwing of stock holders...... Not ONE FREAKING PERSON IN ENRON HAS GONE TO JAIL?? WHERE IS JUSTICE: WHERE IS FAIRNESS??

I see most first world goverments are no longer held acountable for their actions by the citizenry-the only people with any control are the rich and powerfull.

My conclusion: There is no justice or fairness, or equality-the only "fairness" you get is that you take by any means you choose to do.

Going down to the person by person level, I see that being "bad" gets you places, while being "good" gets you used.

I have a very distant cousin who owns a warehouse.... due to certain things in the economy the value of the items in that warehouse became almost nothing-low and behold, a fire happened which just luckily allowed her to collect the insurance money for the full value of the goods. From what she has told me-she knows many other people who have these lucky breaks frequently.

Almost everyone has situational ethics-just trying to justify themsleves to do whatever they want.

On a local, personal level, I'll give an example from my life..


The highschool im graduating from later this week is a great example..... I never cheated, I worked fairly hard. In every test I have EVER taken in that school, I have seen people cheat, at least 15-20% of the class, if not more. I have never seen a homework assignment or project or termpaper or anything where those numbers werent much higher then that. As long as they arent caught(I've seen 2 people caught in 4 years-and they got a slap on the wrist) it dosent matter-they get the benifit. I know someone who cheated all through highschool and was in many of the same classes as me-and as a result has a 10 point higher average..... they got offered huge scholarships from several collages-I get ####.

Why? I choose to do what I percieved as the "good" thing-which gets me nothing, and they didnt.

I think its obvious who wins in the end-the one who goes to college for almost free.

Note: Cheating in school dosent mean you'll be screwed later when you cant rely on cheating them-because you CAN rely on cheating then-but even then-you can get to that harder to get to position and work legitimatly then.


I am just so fed up with everything I need somewhere to vent, and this is it.

I deeply regret not having cheated throughout highschool-I certainly have the mental faculties too, and to have done a much beter job.........

Why have I done my best to live a good, moral life? Everything nice I have ever done is meaningless as it has no impact, and all my hard work is easily replaced by those with less scrupals-all I see is that I have limited myself from progressing.

Is there any reason to be a "good" person, besides when you feel like being one? I no longer see any benifit in it....

	06-06-2003 21:13									#2
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You have to worry less about who's knocking on the door.

I can't say much about high school, since I only did a year and a football season then said "**** this," but people who cheat to pass a test or get a credential (or bullshit on their resumes, etc.) only pass whatever they cheated on - they don't know the underlying subject, so if that knowledge is more useful than passing the test, they're screwed.

As far as the rest of it, on an individual level, if the condition of the average person in Gabon or Cameroon matters to you, go be an aid worker. Seriously. You define what's important to you.

If you want to go through life being an *******, you can do that too. Maybe you'll be successful at it, maybe someone will take exception and screw you into the ground, like most of life, you'll never know until the situation unfolds.

Idealism isn't idealism if you think that's the way the world works. That's delusion. Idealism is a belief in how the world should work, so there's no reason for it to die, because it's always about future change.

	06-06-2003 21:20									#3
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat As far as the rest of it, on an individual level, if the condition of the average person in Gabon or Cameroon matters to you, go be an aid worker. Seriously. You define what's important to you.

It does, I think about it constantly and it bothers me more then I can ever say. I never even though about that..... I am going to give this serious thought.

	06-06-2003 21:21									#4
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Perhaps..to try to bring justice to the world?

Or you can be like the Epicurians, and try to live for pleasure.

quote: Why have I done my best to live a good, moral life? Everything nice I have ever done is meaningless as it has no impact, and all my hard work is easily replaced by those with less scrupals-all I see is that I have limited myself from progressing.

Have you ever asked people for whom you did something nice if it was emaningless to them? maybe you refuse to give it some positive meaning, but maybe they (others) appriciated it.

As for HS: its HS! How far one goes in life is connected to their ambition and their abilities. Yes, maybe the unscrupulous people who cheated will get farther than you, but then, so what? What matters is whether, at the end of your life, you can look back and say..I lived a life I can be happy about. If you can say yes, you achieved what you had to achieve.

	06-06-2003 21:25									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Is there any reason to be a "good" person, besides when you feel like being one? I no longer see any benifit in it....

Solomon woud probably agree with you. He said the following in Ecclesiastes 9:2,

"2 All share a common destiny-the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.

As it is with the good man,
so with the sinner;
as it is with those who take oaths,
so with those who are afraid to take them. "

But here is his wise conclusion:

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil. "

	06-06-2003 21:28									#6
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If God however dosent exist(as I said..) then that is moot.

	06-06-2003 21:28									#7
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I'm sorry that you feel bad about the cheats who did well.

Personally, I'd take names now, and leave the revenge for a few years.



I look on being good as this - isn't there enough sh1t and misery in the world without me adding to it?

You are confusing being "good" and being "honest".

Think on this - what goes around, comes around. You go around treating people bad, you can expect nothing back except the same.

You push too hard - the world will push you back.

Don't feel bad about being honest. Just get on with the next bit of your life as best you can.

Oh yeah, reputation. If you have the rep for being a cheat, it will betray you. Eventually you will betray yourself, because you think you can cheat at everything and your smarter than the rest of the world.

You go down THAT path - boy, are you in for a shock!

	06-06-2003 21:34									#8
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What do you want to do with your life? If you want to be a good person for the sake of being a good person (i.e. because it's the right thing to do), then it shouldn't matter whether or not other people are *******s. **** 'em. If you just want to get ahead of everybody else, then I s'pose you oughta consider lying, cheating, and murdering your way to the top. Your call.

If you're unhappy that the righteous are not always rewarded and that the guilty are not always punished, well, such is life. You can't be God, so rather than getting upset over everything you want to change but can't, just refocus your attention on the things you can change. You'll do yourself and everybody else a helluva lot more good that way, so long as you always keep your own fallibility at the front of your mind.

	06-06-2003 21:38									#9
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Cheating, being "bad", can get you ahead of the race, but it doesn't mean that you will finish first.

Enron cheated, and now they are getting A$$ fuked.

Your relative is now going to have a lot harder time getting fire insurance for another buisness since he already collected on one policy. Bet you even those insurance ppl may be a little sceptical about the cause of the fire and put a flag on his file or even investigate.

Those fools who are cheating in class are only cheating themselves of a solid education. Something that is definitly needed to get ahead in life. They will come to a point one day that they will be say "I really wish I had paid attention in class". Hopefully they won't be saying that to their boss, though they probably will be working in your cousins wharehouse. (Also, if you see it, than I bet your teacher sees it too)

Most of the time those who are not "good" are harming themselves more than others. It may not be as immediate as a "bad" thing is, but it is way worse. This is why they say bad things only happen to good people... Because when something bad happens to a bad person it is good...

Basically, do what you want just weigh the consequences of your actions before you take them. The risk is not always worth the reward...

I've never cheated, and I have failed, failure teaches perseverance...

	06-06-2003 21:57									#10
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Be good, because it is what you believe to be morally right. Do you honestly think you would feel better about yourself or the world if you decided to practice evil? Do you think it won't make a difference to those with whom you interact?

Trying to be a good person is an intregal part of who I am and where I am in life, and without it I believe I'd be a very different individual. Maybe I'd be more successful in terms of wealth or fame, but what about my friends and loved ones? I've cultivated a circle of friends whom I believe are also very good, moral people. I doubt I'd have them today if I were an evil ****. That's not a good trade off, IMO.

	06-06-2003 22:00									#11
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Beelzebub, old chap? Chalk up another new entry on the register, if you'd be so kind.

	06-06-2003 22:12									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Enron cheated, and now they are getting A$$ fuked.

The company as a whole, yes, but that doesn't say anything about fairness. The individuals who got ass****ed by the Enron debacle are the innocents--those employees who had nothing to do with the company's malfeasance but lost their retirement, their stock, etc. So many people in that company who didn't deserve it got screwed.

Meanwhile, those who were responsible for the wrongdoing and benefitted financially from it have pretty much gotten away scott free. Ken Lay isn't exactly suffering terribly at the moment, as he still has hundreds of millions of dollars.

Enron is indeed not fair. Unfortunately, no one in the current government seems to have any interest in really pursuing the cuplrits. Hmmm, wonder why...

	06-06-2003 22:40									#13
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Become a nihilist.

	06-06-2003 22:50									#14
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quote: Enron cheated, and now they are getting A$$ fuked.

Ken Lay still plays golf with his good friend Dubya.

	06-06-2003 22:54									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Ken Lay still plays golf with his good friend Dubya.

That doesn't mean there isn't and A$$ fuking going on

	06-06-2003 22:56									#16
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maybe those guys could do with some nihilism as well...

	06-06-2003 23:01									#17
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quote: Become a nihilist.

Btw, Ves, aren't you a bit old for this rant? I asked this question from myself when I was six, then dealt with the dilemma within my brains. Despite the time which has passed, I've seen no clear reason to change my stance, and decision, which was made, since I spent time towards pondering of the problem.

	06-06-2003 23:02									#18
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Well Vesayen, I goes you should just go bad then, if you want to play golf, and possibly take up the rear, from Georgy boy.

	06-06-2003 23:04									#19
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"To the world you may be just one person, but to one person, you may just be the world" - Unknown

If that's not enough to encourage you to be a good person, I don't know what is. Just keep in mind that, no matter what, there will probably be one or two people out there that care about what you do.

quote: If God however dosent exist(as I said..) then that is moot.

If you can't think of any reason to be good besides what some other being thinks, then perhaps you should look up existentialism. Read Camus.

quote: Become a nihilist.

Or don't.

	06-06-2003 23:05									#20
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If you will not believe in god, there's a good argument along the lines of, "lie down with dogs, get up with fleas." If you live your life as a backstabbing creep with no standards, you might not get caught but sooner or later you will find yourself surrounded by backstabbing creeps with no standards. Birds of a feather, blah blah blah. If you want to consort with human vermin that's your privilege but I think it's a waste of time that could be spent on more worthwhile activities, like playing Russian Roulette with a semi-automatic.
And nasty ideas come in threes. The little ****ers in high school didn't get caught, but one immoral notion tends to lead to another and cheating on tests is just a stupid gateway drug of sorts. If you are in the habit of bad habit you're very likely to go too far. Enron is a bad example because those were fantastically well-connected scum. About .1 percent of the population can even dream of becoming that rich. If you plan on screwing your way to the top you'd better wear one helluva condom and prepare for a decade or two of self-loathing, followed by apathy, likely public embarassment, and a decent chance of torrid affairs and/or suicide. Let's not forget lawsuits, moochers and hangers-on.
If you're planning on bringing children into the world there's a whole other class of arguments waiting for you.

	06-06-2003 23:09									#21
	Put an end to popups!

Nihilism

	06-06-2003 23:16									#22
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nihilism

	06-06-2003 23:17									#23
	Re: Is there any reason to be a good person? I see no justice in the world Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Vesayen I see no justice in the world-there is no point to be good.

Damn right you dirty bastard!

	06-06-2003 23:18									#24
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Bah. Existentialism is nihilism in denial. And nihilism is just a way out for weenies who are too gloomy to get friends and too cowardly to commit suicide. And don't read Camus, it's boring as all get out. I mean, The Stranger is just some passive-aggressive loser who things the good life is all about banging some clingy skank from the office, muttering on inneffectually about the absurdity of this and that for a hundred frigging pages. One of the most tedious reads of my life.

	06-06-2003 23:19									#25
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you forgot to mention "whining little brother attitude"

apart from that, a pretty American reply

	06-06-2003 23:20									#26
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Being a good person is it's own reward.

	06-06-2003 23:24									#27
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This topic reminds me of a poem by Mother Theresa.

People are often unreasonable, illogical and self-centered;
Forgive them anyway.

If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives;
Be kind anyway.

If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies;
Succeed anyway.

If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you;
Be honest and frank anyway.

What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight;
Build anyway

If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous;
Be happy anyway.

The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow;
Do good anyway.

Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough;
Give the world the best you've got anyway.

	06-06-2003 23:24									#28
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"We believe nothing. Next time we cut off your johnson."

	06-06-2003 23:26									#29
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finally someone with a sense for good movies

what is on a loin-burger?

	06-06-2003 23:27									#30
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I typically put on jalapenos and tobasco, plus a bit of salt. Grilled onions are nice too.