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Rasbelin
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Tampere (Tammerfors), Finland
Nov 1999
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by juhani_kahvi
I W0N!!!11!!11!¤#"""!!1 |
[spiritual freak mode] It's your confession and you're ought to follow it, Eepa. [/spiritual freak mode]
Indeed, what you two are basically speaking of is one's personal belief, which can't be debated as no one is wrong and everyone is right with their personal confession. I myself find myself as a mixture of neo Christian Hindu Atheist elements and no one can say I'm wrong. On the original question, which was asked by Vesayen in the thread title, I would say that God doesn't pop-up and say "Hi", because he has either decided to leave the destiny into the hands of the mankind and aid a little bit with Moses, Jesus and several other "messangers", or he's controlling everything (however not as Jean Calvin speculated). I will leave that as an open question, because I'm not living for my faith. If I would do so, I maybe then waste several hundred lines to speculate the issue in depth.
Panag,
you're speaking against your own Judaist confession now by saying Jesus was son of God (i.e. Messiah). 
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Asuka
[spiritual freak mode] It's your confession and you're ought to follow it, Eepa. [/spiritual freak mode]
Indeed, what you two are basically speaking of is one's personal belief, which can't be debated as no one is wrong and everyone is right with their personal confession. I myself find myself as a mixture of neo Christian Hindu Atheist elements and no one can say I'm wrong. On the original question, which was asked by Vesayen in the thread title, I would say that God doesn't pop-up and say "Hi", because he has either decided to leave the destiny into the hands of the mankind and aid a little bit with Moses, Jesus and several other "messangers", or he's controlling everything (however not as Jean Calvin speculated). I will leave that as an open question, because I'm not living for my faith. If I would do so, I maybe then waste several hundred lines to speculate the issue in depth.
Panag,
you're speaking against your own Judaist confession now by saying Jesus was son of God (i.e. Messiah). |
hi ,
how can it be against my faith , ..... we dont even see him as the son , ..... but according to other faiths its the son of the "big chief" , ..... so how can i speak against my own religion , i just respect other people's religion and the way they think , ......
have a great day
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St Leo
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Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Zero
No but he's god so he can determine what is fair or not.
his house, his rules.  |
Ugh.
Whose house does God occupy? UberGod's? Whose house does UberGod occupy?
Seriously, the Universe just is. We know how much of it works, though certain esoteric specifics are still elusive. Life's whatever you make of it.
We don't need religion for behavioural instruction either. I was raised on the Greek Myths, Hans Christian Andersen, and Brother Grimm and turned out fine. I help people and am rather polite in my interactions. Saying that the Bible 0wnZ Andersen because it's older is akin to saying that A Trip to the Moon (1902) 0wnZ The Matrix because it's older.
Yes, you can fit a rectangular God into the hole that is our unknown, but you can also fit a triangular one, an octagonal one, and as many dodecahedronal ones as you would care for. I can understand doing it for kicks, but please don't take it seriously.
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by juhani_kahvi
Cruddy:
-SNIP-
....Of course you can choose to start thinking or stop thinking, but that is not free will. That is a decision based on the information you already have, and taking the information you have and your brain structure into account, no other decision could have been made.
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Ah, but I can choose to actively think on something (logical consideration of problems) or I can choose to meditate instead (actively discouraging free thought, which often results in a subconcious idea surfacing).
Where does this "choice" come from? I'm deliberately limiting the argument (as are you) inside the mind, because if you start taking outside influences into consideration, free will does diminish - the attitudes of others comes into play. It doesn't extinguish completely but few people are truly free thinkers.
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Angelo Scotto
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Milan, Italy
Oct 1999
time: 05:28
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quote:
Originally posted by juhani_kahvi
I sure did not mean that the brain is a machine in the same manner as a car is.
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 where i told you a similar thing? Turing was not a car vendor, ok, not last time i checked...
quote:
Originally posted by juhani_kahvi
And you can forget about classical mechanics, too, since they are not very useful when examining brains.
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i believe i'm starting to understand...
No, look, for classical mechanics i mean pre-1925 physics, you know, mechanicism, the "system behavior can be determined by knowing initial state and external forces acting on it" thing.
quote:
Originally posted by juhani_kahvi
I DO KNOW that brains do not fuction the same way as computers do. But on a deeper, logical level, it seems necessary that brain works SYSTEMATICALLY: it receives information, processes it according to it's structure and controls the body according to the processed information.
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It seems you've depicted an algorithm here, if it's an algorithm, according to Church, it can be implemented in a Turing Machine (i.e. a computer), but here is the error: a brain and a Turing machine ARE different and the difference IS exactly on logical level!
quote:
Originally posted by panag
 , that was his son , .....
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NO WAY!  There was that Trinity thing: one God, three persons ! 
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LoneWolf
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Asuka- You're wrong. There, I said it.
UR- Your anti-Americanism is truly spectacular, beyond what would be expected. You must be the hero of your friends.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:28
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Couple quick points to rebut:
1. You may have killed Christ, but Christ defeated death by rising from the dead.
So what have you accomplished, except for establishing the righteousness of all those who believe in Christ?
Secondly we refer to God the Father to distiguish from the person of Jesus, begotton of the Father before all worlds. This represents the relationship between the Father, God, and the Son Jesus, though both are still God.
quote:
Whose house does God occupy? UberGod's? Whose house does UberGod occupy?
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St. Leo, God occupies the Universe, though he can also exist outside of his creation. Therefore, no house can ever completely encompass God. A better figure of speech may be that God gets to do what he wants with what he makes.
Menlas
quote:
In fact, I'd rather say that the Bible is a proof of the christian God's non-existence, because we know that some facts in it are not correct (Man wasn't created in 1 day, except for some american fanatics ).
How could the Bible be wrong if it represents God's words ?
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Good point. However, the interpretation of the hebrew word day used in the passage alluded to may also pertain to eon rather than a single day. Therefore, the fault lies not in scripture, but in the interpretation of scripture.
Are there anymore gross inaccuracies in the Bible?
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juhani_kahvi
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Mänttä, Finland
Mar 2002
time: 07:28
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quote:
Ah, but I can choose to actively think on something (logical consideration of problems) or I can choose to meditate instead (actively discouraging free thought, which often results in a subconcious idea surfacing).
Where does this "choice" come from? I'm deliberately limiting the argument (as are you) inside the mind, because if you start taking outside influences into consideration, free will does diminish - the attitudes of others comes into play. It doesn't extinguish completely but few people are truly free thinkers. |
I'm sorry but I'm not sure if I understand. Are you asking where the choice to meditate comes from?
It is impossible to limit the argument inside the mind, since after the mind has once aquired outside information, it will never vanish from inside the mind. Meditation is a state of mind where subconscious processes are able examine and alter already aquired information.
quote:
No, look, for classical mechanics i mean pre-1925 physics, you know, mechanicism, the "system behavior can be determined by knowing initial state and external forces acting on it" thing. |
Oh, now I understand. Mechanicism, as I understand it, is more like a philosophy instead of physics.
However, the random elements which quantum mechanics offer do not constitute as free will. They are just random events. Also, such scientists as Wolfram and Barabási are currently developing theories which could make even quantum mechanics predictable.
Or did you have something else in mind than quantum mechanics?
quote:
It seems you've depicted an algorithm here, if it's an algorithm, according to Church, it can be implemented in a Turing Machine (i.e. a computer), but here is the error: a brain and a Turing machine ARE different and the difference IS exactly on logical level! |
That is not the entire truth. Have you heard about "hazed logic"? (that's the name for it in Finnish, don't know the English name and my dictionary doesn't either) The difference between computer logics and "hazed logic" is that when computers use 1 and 0 to describe information, "hazed logic" uses any numbers between 1 and 0, usually excluding 1 and 0 themselves. "Hazed logic" is a somewhat new branch of logics, but it has proven extremely useful in, for example, developing artifical intelligence.
Of course applications that run according to "hazed logic" are still running on ordinary computers, and are thus only illusions of "hazed logic" taking place. The point is, that binary logics are not the only forms of logic in the universe.
This, however, is not my area of expertise. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Vesayen
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quote:
Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Absolutely! He created you in such a way as you have a choice. It is you who refuse to open your eyes?
Or do you have no free-will? |
I dont see God-its not an active choice I made, I just dont see him-that is my fault?
quote:
Originally posted by The diplomat
Not true. Knowing all things is very different from controlling all things. If God controlled all things, then there wouldn't be any free will. But simply knowing all things does not negate free will. |
God knows these things in advance-since he knows all future vents, so while he did not decide what they will be, it means the future is already determined by the laws of casuality.
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Vesayen
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quote:
Originally posted by juhani_kahvi
But the option to choose is merely and illusion, if god is all-knowing and knows how things will end up anyway. If god foresees that I will go to hell, the whole struggle is pointless. God can predict it all. Either god is limited, or there is no free will.
I do not believe in a god. And I do not believe in free will either. In a strictly scientific sense, we are all machines with no ability to control our behaviour, since the brain is an organ like any other organ, and works according to it's chemistry.
IT DOES NOT MEAN that, for example, criminals should not be punished, or that life would be completely meaningless. It means, basically, that we do not have a soul of any kind. |
I also a subscribe to the "universe is a machine" theory
quote:
Originally posted by Cruddy
There's a paradox in your argument.
If there is free will, then you choose to believe there isn't.
If there isn't free will, then you have been programmed to CHOOSE not to believe there isn't.
How do you explain this choice of yours without free will?  |
Free will isnt neccesary to come to the conclusion that you have none. If free will exists, I come to this conclusion based on my knowledge of chemistry and physics, if it dosent exist, I still come to the same conclusion for the same reason.
quote:
Originally posted by Angelo Scotto
Not this old theory again...
scientifically speaking it was surpassed something as 70 years ago...
Our brain is NOT a machine in the classical sense, it simply can't be because consciousness can't be explained fully by classical mechanics.
No, brain is NOT a computer, and mind is NOT a program.
Theoretical computer science gave us several interesting proofs of this. |
Thats why you throw in a VERY heavy helping of chemistry and particle physics
Last edited by Vesayen on 08-06-2003 at 18:12
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
Are there anymore gross inaccuracies in the Bible? |
1. Creation
2. Flood
3. Tower of Babel
There's a start.
I'd love an explanation for this:
Gen.4:18
"Mehujael begat Methusael."
Gen.5:21
"And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah."
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Gen.5:3-18
"And Adam ... begat ... Seth....
And Seth ... begat Enos....
And Enos ... begat Cainan....
And Cainan .... begat Mahalaleel....
And Mahalaleel ... begat Jared....
And Jared .... begat Enoch."
Jude 14
"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam.... "
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Num.23:19
"God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of a man that he should repent."
Ex.32:14
"And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
________________
Gen.14:14
"And when Abram heard that his brother [Lot] was taken captive ...."
Gen.14:16
"And also brought again his brother Lot ...."
Gen.14:12
"And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed."
______________________
Gen.18:14
"Is any thing too hard for the LORD?"
Jg.1:19
"And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
(Apparently, yes! )
________________________
Heb.6:18
"It was impossible for God to lie."
Ezek.14:9
"And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet."
________________________
Gen.26:34
"And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite."
Gen.36:2-3
"Esau took his wives of the daughters of Canaan; Adah, the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and ... Bashemath Ishmael's daughter."
__________________________
1 Cor.12:31
"Covet earnestly the best gifts."
Rom.13:9
"Thou shalt not covet."
_________________________
Jas.1:13
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
Mal.3:15
"And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered."
__________________________
1 Sam.8:2
"Now the name of his [Samuel's] firstborn son was Joel."
1 Chr.6:28
"And the sons of Samuel; the firstborn Vashni."
___________________________
1 Sam.17:49-50
David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth. David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.
1 Sam.17:51
David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him,and cut off his head therewith.
(So Goliath was slewn twice?)
________________________________
1 Kg.8:9
"There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt."
Heb.9:4
"The ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant."
________________________
Tip of iceberg.
BTW, was Jesus the first to be resurrected?
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
1. Creation
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Can you come up with a better parable that a 4thcentury nomad can understand?
quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
2. Flood
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Flood myths are everywhere. Personally my opinion is a lot of them are memories of the end of the last ice age.
quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
3. Tower of Babel
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Just because we haven't found it yet doesn't mean it never existed... We haven't found the hanging gardens either!
quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Gen.5:21
"And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah."
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What's the problem? A guy lives to 65 and fathers a son? Who is to say he wasn't fathered before the age of 65? There's 2 different ways to interpret and both are equally valid.
quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
"And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite."
Gen.36:2-3
"Esau took his wives of the daughters of Canaan; Adah, the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and ... Bashemath Ishmael's daughter."
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Again, different ways to interpret. Could have been 2 different people - or could have been 1 person and referring to father and mother (unusual but not unheard of).
quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
1.Cor.12:31
"Covet earnestly the best gifts."
Rom.13:9
"Thou shalt not covet."
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"And still these 3 things remain; they are gifts from God; faith, hope and love."
What's wrong with coveting the best gifts? Covetng material stuff is harmful, but I see nothing wrong in coveting the best things from God.
quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
1 Sam.17:49-50
David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth. David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.
1 Sam.17:51
David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him,and cut off his head therewith.
(So Goliath was slewn twice?)
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Goliath being a giant, he was obviously brought down before having his head cut off.
quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
1 Kg.8:9
"There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt."
Heb.9:4
"The ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant."
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OK, there's a lot of references to "Of course the Ark is still in the Temple! Of course the Covenant is still inside!"
When in fact it probably wasn't. The Bush admin is hardly the first to deny the truth, is it?
Anyway, blaming God for a failure of the ancient Hebrew priesthood isn't very sensible, is it?
quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
BTW, was Jesus the first to be resurrected? |
Not my judgement call. 
I regret my theology is not up to dismissing the rest of these inconsistencies. 
I wouldn't say the Bible is faultless. I would say it can be misleading and can be used to propogate evil.
Technology is like that. You can do harm or good with it.
Last edited by Cruddy on 08-06-2003 at 21:10
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Cruddy
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*** DELETE ME Double Post ***
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Cruddy
Can you come up with a better parable that a 4thcentury nomad can understand? |
Point is...it's not accurate, hence no Biblical inerrancy.
quote:
Flood myths are everywhere. Personally my opinion is a lot of them are memories of the end of the last ice age. |
Localized floods, yes. Worldwide flood as described in Genesis? No. Again, the absolute interpretation of the Bible fails.
quote:
Just because we haven't found it yet doesn't mean it never existed... We haven't found the hanging gardens either! |
IIRC, we know in the excavations of Babylon where the gardens were. But the point isn't the physical tower, it's the absurd myth for the formation of world languages.
quote:
What's the problem? A guy lives to 65 and fathers a son? Who is to say he wasn't fathered before the age of 65? There's 2 different ways to interpret and both are equally valid. |
You misread it. The contradiction is that the Bible gives two different fathers for Methuselah.
quote:
Again, different ways to interpret. Could have been 2 different people - or could have been 1 person and referring to father and mother (unusual but not unheard of). |
Elon and Ishmael are both males, and I doubt Esau took more than one woman named Bashemath as a wife. I would also doubt he took more than one daughter of Elon the Hittite as wife.
quote:
"And still these 3 things remain; they are gifts from God; faith, hope and love."
What's wrong with coveting the best gifts? Covetng material stuff is harmful, but I see nothing wrong in coveting the best things from God. |
Coveting is okay due to circumstances then.
quote:
Goliath being a giant, he was obviously brought down before having his head cut off. |
Nuh-uh, it specifically says "slew" twice. First David slew him with the stone, having no sword, and then he comes and takes Goliath's sword and slays him again. How can one be slewn twice?
quote:
OK, there's a lot of references to "Of course the Ark is still in the Temple! Of course the Covenant is still inside!"
When in fact it probably wasn't. The Bush admin is hardly the first to deny the truth, is it? |
You missed the point again...one passage said that the Ark ONLY contained the covenant, whereas another says there were other things inside. Which is correct?
quote:
Anyway, blaming God for a failure of the ancient Hebrew priesthood isn't very sensible, is it? |
That's precisely the point. Claiming the Bible is the Word of God puts one in the untenable position of having to deal with God making such clearly contradictory statements and falsehoods. I find it rather funny that the all-powerful Lord of Creation was stymied by a few iron chariots, and then admits such in his book.
As you admit, the Bible is not inerrant, hence it is not the Word of God, but rather human writings that are, obviously, quite fallable.
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juhani_kahvi
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Mänttä, Finland
Mar 2002
time: 07:28
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About the Tower of Babel...
quote:
Just because we haven't found it yet doesn't mean it never existed... We haven't found the hanging gardens either! |
The following is a copy & paste from http://www.dynopower.freeserve.co.u...es/creation.htm
"The bible story of why humanity speaks thousands of different languages ranks right up there with the story of Santa Claus and the stork bringing the children. A nice bedtime story for the kids, were it not for the tendency to blame a vengeful deity. Somebody has to set the record straight and absolve God from all responsibility in this case. Let's give it a try.
To start with, we have to make the fairly safe assumption that the Babylonians at that time were not the most stupid people on the face of the Earth. The assumption is safe, since they managed to have an empire, albeit a modest one, had a written language, kept books, etc. So, if they were not
stupid, then:
- Why did they want to build a tower and waste a tremendous amount of resources to peek into the living room of a god they didn't even believe in?
- Why would they build a tower in the lowlands when they could get ahead by starting on the top of a mountain a few hundred kilometers north?
- Why try building a huge tower in the lowlands [except perhaps for defensive walls] where every brick had to be made from mud, ?
- Finally, why would any god not just have a tremendous belly laugh at the futility of his subjects? [And why has God not responded similarly to modern skyscrapers--or are we expected to believe that the pile of mud bricks was way higher? And why would God even care, unless He actually did live just a few hundred feet overhead, and a human who reached His home could seriously challenge His supremacy? RJR]"
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Bookwyrm
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quote:
Originally posted by Cruddy Can you come up with a better parable that a 4thcentury nomad can understand? |
Yes. Simply switching the events in Genesis around so that they are in the right order, eg. putting the creation of the Sun and the Stars before the creation of the Earth and of plants, would have made it a better creation account.
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08-06-2003 02:24
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