07-06-2003 03:39									#1
	Will they ever change the barbarian system? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Will they ever change the system? Right now the barbarians are ok, they can cause you a lot of damage but I wish they could raze cities. Barbarians did this more than any other civilization in real life. All that happens when they enter a city is just steal money, and that's dumb. Barbarians can really hurt your production and expansion, but they can't do in civ3 what they did to the Roman Empire in real life. They also need to change the whole razing system alltogether. One unit should only be able to kill a certain amount of population. It's dumb for a marine with 1 hitpoint to completely wipe out a city with millions of people.

Edit: another problem with the system is that they only fight you when your empire is first expanding. It would be cool to have a big war with them once your empire is established. And, I think that barbarian civs should progress almost as fast technologically as the civ they're next to. The only barbarian units are warriors and horsemen, which isn't enough. It would be realistic if it was possible to have modern age barbarians. Consider them like the bedouins, who fought during world war 1 or just a terrorist organization like Al Quada.

	07-06-2003 04:11									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Wow yes! Barbarians should evolve into terror cells! Then you could pay them off or 'host' them in your country while asking them to commit terror attacks against other civs, sweet! That would definitely flesh out the espionage in the game. and give warmongerers a bit more diversity.

	07-06-2003 04:13									#3
	Remove this text

I would like it if Barbs and minor tribes were changed completely

Instead they would be cities, and produce units. They would be more simplified, though

Imagine this:

Your unit encounters the tribe, and you make contact with them. They may wish to offer you a gift, or not. They may attack you with a unit that they produced. You could enter the city and sack it (Destroys the city, gives you gold, just like a Barb camp), you could continue to demand stuff from them after their initial gift, or you give them stuff. If they like you enough, they would join your civilization (culture will help, of course), but if they don't you could pay them to attack a rival.

In theory, it is still similar to goodie huts in the sense that you meet them and they give you a tech. Only now they act as Barb camps as well, but their only purpose isn't to destroy (although they should have at least Zulu agression, after their initial gift)

	08-06-2003 12:15									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

:: thumbs up :: on Louis XXIV 's idea.

I really like it. A kind of indepdent city that you can either forcibly conquer and or asbord into your Civilization.

It adds a whole layer of diplomacy in the early game where you not only interact with other Civs, but with barbarian Civs as well.

But you know, I think this is Civ 4 territory, along with Civil war. IMO, IF they have an engine that can handle Civil war, (as in multiple AI civs beyond the major Civs you play against) then Barbarian city states are probably in as well.

One idea I think is to have some barbs grow and become Civs of their own. And stay around.

	08-06-2003 16:34									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

If you did all this, how would the barbarians be any different from an unsuccessful civ?

There's an assumption that the barbarians want to live on the fringe and stay uncivilized; raiding, looting, and pillaging. Not being nice second class citizens absorbed into your empire.

I would like the fringe always to be a threat to civilization.

	08-06-2003 20:42									#6
	Re: Will they ever change the barbarian system? Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod Another problem with the system is that they only fight you when your empire is first expanding. It would be cool to have a big war with them once your empire is established. And, I think that barbarian civs should progress almost as fast technologically as the civ they're next to. The only barbarian units are warriors and horsemen, which isn't enough. It would be realistic if it was possible to have modern age barbarians. Consider them like the bedouins, who fought during world war 1 or just a terrorist organization like Al Quada.

That's a great idea. Imagine a group of barbarian tanks coming into your mainland. But I dont know if terrorists are the greatest ideas. It could be very easy to win the game that means.

	08-06-2003 21:05									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The market is WAAAAAAY too sensitive to put terrorists in any game where they might be used to the humans' advantage.

	09-06-2003 01:15									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm If you did all this, how would the barbarians be any different from an unsuccessful civ? There's an assumption that the barbarians want to live on the fringe and stay uncivilized; raiding, looting, and pillaging. Not being nice second class citizens absorbed into your empire. I would like the fringe always to be a threat to civilization.

Barbarians won't change that much with the way I visualize it.

The biggest difference is that goodie huts would dissapear. Now Barbaians/Minor_Tribes/Whatever_you_want_to_call_them offer gifts when you make contact, and will periodically offer new gifts. But they will build units, and demand tribute. They aren't civs. They don't research techs (they will get them semi-randomly). They won't build improvements.

In order to deal with them, you have several options:

Pay them off. They won't attack you, and will go ask tribute from someone else.

Keep a large military to defend against their attacks, but don't kill their camps.

Kill the Goose that laid the Golden Egg. If you destroy a Barbarian camp, it won't produce any units, and you will get any gold they have. But they can't periodically offer gifts of technology, maps, gold, settlers, etc (what you find in goodie huts)

I am probably not explaining it as good as I can, but that is the best I can do for now

	09-06-2003 06:59									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Four minor changes that'd greatly enhance barbarians:
1) Units available to barbs changing by age:
Warrior/Horseman/Galley ancient age
Medieval infantry/Muskets/Privateer middle ages
Guerrilla Industrial & modern

2) Barb camps not autorazed when they come into your civs culture radius. The game should make you go and kill them.

3) When a barb enters your city they should demand a ransom or raze the city. If you don't have enough to pay, then they auto-raze. The ransom should probally be like 25 gold per city per age: (so 15 cities in the middle ages would be 25x15x2 or 750 gold)

4) "Barbarian" camps should start appearing within your culture borders by random whenever there is signicant unrest (unhappy citizens) within a city. These pockets of resistance or more likely to popup in terrain which offers a defensive bonus (ie mountains/jungle). This particular effect shouldn't appear until about the same time pollution becomes a factor. This should be much more common after a government switch. Unassimilated citizens from civs which your civ is at war with could also be factored in for a greater chance. Possibly reduce the chances for any square neihboring a "fort" with military units fortified in it and for squares bordering the city itself if it is garisoned.

	09-06-2003 17:40									#10
	Support Apolyton

hi ,

when bored i play with basic barbs as infantry and advanced ones as cav , ......

man , they really rock in ptw

still to bad they cant take hitpoint like before the patch , .......

that should be put back inside the game

have a nice day

	10-06-2003 09:52									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I really like wervdon's ideas.

quote: Keep a large military to defend against their attacks, but don't kill their camps.

Problem is, people would surround the camps with fortified defensive units in forts so no barbarians would get past and attack your cities but they'd keep the barbs alive so you could just receive their gifts.

Another big thing they really need is civil war. It's very unrealistic because you always have a lot of control of everything. It'd be really cool of like all of the cities on a continent other than they homeland might rebel like America did or something. Many countries were originally owned by another country but then gained independence (most of those fought for it), such as every country in the Americas.