07-06-2003 20:35									#31
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So, what's next?
I understand that we've worked out an agreement with Vox where we hold our turn and they hold theirs to allow our teams time to discuss Vox's surrender, but if we're not going to accept it at any condition (including Nathan's plan) then we should just play our turn and move on, no?

	07-06-2003 20:42									#32
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I do not believe that we are yet at the point of a negotiated surrender.

In the hallowed words of Regis Philbin:

Let's play!

	07-06-2003 23:23									#33
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Hello?

	08-06-2003 00:06									#34
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I love this solution. Do we need to put feelers out to Vox?... in the form of

Would you leave this continent for peace?

Mss

	08-06-2003 00:23									#35
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Too early... let us destroy most of their Immortals and see the remainder redlined first.

	08-06-2003 00:27									#36
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Yes, that kind of a general feeler would be good.
Would anyone object if we send along something like this:

quote: Honorable Beta, The results of the poll within Gathering Storm are conclusive. The majority of my team does not wish to see Vox remain on our continent. But while this decision closes another door, it opens up a wholly new one. What does Vox Controli think of a deal that basically involves allowing Vox to evacuate as much of its population as possible in the form of workers and settlers in exchange for peace? Cordially, insert-name-here.

	08-06-2003 00:34									#37
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MSS's wording in the diplo thread is much better.

	08-06-2003 03:15									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Nathan, I'm just looking at the screenshot, so I can't count... if we take out everything up through Beta-by-the-Sea and Harry's Hideout, how many cities does that leave Vox?

Vox has three cities north of Harry's Hideout and Beta-by-the-sea.

	08-06-2003 04:21									#39
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Then I still say that's the time to make the offer... yes, I know it means forgoing part of our builder GA, but it still let's us cut the war short, and it's an interesting concept to see what effect their scramble will have on geo-politics.

We would also need to shape how this would get presented publicly... might be a great 'rep builder' for us, which we oh-so-sorely need.

	08-06-2003 21:19									#40
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It might be useful to put ourselves in their shoes for a moment:

As Vox, would we agree to the terms being discussed in this thread (brought forth by Nathan)? If so, what would be our broad plan for the rest of the game? If not, what would we do for the remaining turns of our existence?

These questions aside, I would really like to get Vox's free Industrial tech, and I think we're in a pretty good position to demand that right now. I would even add the clause that they're not allowed to trade or gift it to another team. Whether we trust them or not is another question. Perhaps we could figure out a way of ensuring their obedience. Unfortunately, I cannot think of any way of doing this.


Dominae

	08-06-2003 21:27									#41
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If our plan is to offer what Nathan proposed in this thread, I think we'd be better off wiping them out.

I do think such an offer is insulting, and given their track record they would almost surely spend the next few centuries plotting how to get their revenge.

If the team concensus is that we want them off the continent, then let's just kill 'em.

-Arrian

	08-06-2003 21:32									#42
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Sure it's an insult. But our reputation is already so low, that it probably doesn't matter anymore.

	08-06-2003 21:37									#43
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Sometimes that's what I think the guys running US foreign policy think.

"**** it, they all hate us anyway!"

It's 11 to 3 against peace, IIRC, so it's pretty clear what the team wants to do. Let's just kill them.

A polite "sorry, we have discussed peace but decided against it" to Vox would probably be the best response.

-Arrian

	09-06-2003 03:59									#44
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I don't think that any offer to keep Vox alive is insulting at the moment. We'll probably find that Vox has been gifted a city or something anyway- that doesn't seem unlikely, but far less honorable than admitting defeat, packing up and leaving...

I say we send it.

	09-06-2003 11:37									#45
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If I were in Vox's position, I think my response would be, "Thanks, but no thanks." Staying in a game I know I won't be competitive in has no appeal to me. But I wouldn't be offended at being offered the choice so I could decide for myself whether I want to stay in the game under such conditions.

As to how Vox would respond, that depends largely on whether they think they'd enjoy continuing to participate even if they can't be a serious competitor or whether they'd rather go ahead and be conquered and move on to other things.

	10-06-2003 02:19									#46
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Nathan,

I understand that is how YOU would react. But I doubt most others would react that way.

My response would be somewhat different.

It's a fate worse than death (where, exactly, do you think they could go?) and is therefore not a peace offer at all. I still think it's best to simply inform them that we decided against peace at this time. If they would like to try and convince us to change our mind(s), they are welcome to present offers, but should be aware that the hawks outnumber the doves by a factor of 4.

-Arrian

	10-06-2003 11:17									#47
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They wrote an answer and just ignored that immoral proposal. Thumbs up, I think that was the wisest reaction.

	10-06-2003 11:32									#48
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SR:
I agree

So I guess it will be a bloody end.

Mss

	10-06-2003 13:59									#49
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Obviously we must completely reject the peace proposal that Jon Miller sent. Vox keeps the bottle-neck? We move Inchon two squares south? Give me a f**king break...

	10-06-2003 14:30									#50
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Yeah, just read that myself, what is that about???

Let's get it over with and take them out...
Short diplomatic rep hit versus long-term or even everlasting headaches, hmmm, tough choice

	10-06-2003 15:08									#51
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That's a ridiculous offer- they're not giving up anything, and we give up the opportunity of securing this continent.

What are they thinking?

	10-06-2003 15:47									#52
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We can still try to negotiate. Obviously they are low-balling, trying to keep as much as possible. They might be willing to concede more. I suggest that we should point out to them that they aren't actually giving us anything that isn't effectively ours already (okay, we get D'ville, but at the moment the best thing they can do is give it away to get their troops back to their capitol), and they get to keep their army intact while we move Inchon south to avoid crowding Elipolis. That is a net loss on our part compared to what we can have now, and we should tell them that. Remember that war continues unabated until an agreement is found, so the pressure really is on them to come up with a proposal that we might go with - if they offer any more similar proposals they lose out in that we sieze what they are already offering and obviously then want some new concessions for peace.

	10-06-2003 19:07									#53
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Proposed response:

quote: I hate to say it, but doves in the lands of Gathering Storm are an endangered species right now. The hawks outnumber them enormously. We are now within sight of total victory, and while we would like to get back into builder mode as quickly as possible, spending the rest of the game wondering when and how Vox might betray us again isn't worth it. The deception you used to set up your invasion was superb, but the price of such a well-executed deception is that it makes further trust next to impossible. Vox's only real hope of survival, if you consider it worth taking, would be to evacuate this continent and find somewhere else to live (if a suitable place can be found). If you are interested in that, we could negotiate some time for you to do so and take enough with you that you can get going in your new location reasonably quickly. Otherwise, I don't see how a peace treaty would be possible. Nathan

	10-06-2003 19:12									#54
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That's pretty good, Nathan.

I might be willing to accept peace for everything south of the neck, disbandment of their immortal stack in our territory, Engineering & their free Industrial tech, plus a committment to always maintain an army that is "weak" compared to ours.

But even then, I'm not sure because of the trust issue, and it's pretty clear the rest of the team is sure - sure of saying NO.

So your response sums things up rather well.

-Arrian

	10-06-2003 19:19									#55
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Yes, it's a good response.

	10-06-2003 21:58									#57
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Gets my vote too

	11-06-2003 06:58									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I might be willing to accept peace for everything south of the neck, disbandment of their immortal stack in our territory, Engineering & their free Industrial tech, plus a committment to always maintain an army that is "weak" compared to ours.

ARRIAN!!!

Think of something at work that REALLY pisses you off... GOOD!! Now think of VOX!!!

	12-06-2003 02:40									#59
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As we are going ahead with this proposal, I feel that we need modify the proposal a bit..

Some ideas....

I would like to see 3 WCs in Vox territory (1 near D'ville and 2 in the core)

We should get their free Industrial Tech.

We should plan on supplying them Iron free of charge for the duration.

State the techs will be free of charge subject to to any NDA or whatever current clauses we agree upon at the time. (How long should this last?)

They owe us any techs they research free of charge for the duration of our supplying techs for them (without comprimising their diplomatic/trade ties).

question: Should we offer to explore for them? Isnt there an island to the SW of Monsoon or OG that we need to discover for ourselves? Will we let Vox settle there?

Just some ideas...

Mss

	12-06-2003 02:48									#60
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I still think that we're going to get screwed over by letting Vox stay in the game, but maybe not by as much as we'll gain by getting them off the island ASAP.

Until this thing is signed though, it should be business as usual.

---------------

Any ideas as to how Vox 'screwed up' the last couple turns?