07-06-2003 08:05									#1
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Not all the votes are necessarily in, but it seems crystal clear that Vox will not be allowed to survive on our continent. That being the case, I've come up with a final offer that might work from our perspective:

1) Vox will hand over their catapults and disband all of their other military forces except for five immortals. They will allow up to two WCs to enter their territory to verify compliance and will keep their cities empty of forces while our inspectors visit.

2) We will give Vox 12 turns of peace to build and rush settlers and galleys to evactuate as much of their population as possible. With proper planning (and we could help with that), I think they could escape with at least five settlers and galleys to go with the immortals they're allowed to keep.

3) While Vox is rebuilding in whatever new home they can find (if any), we will supply Vox with whatever technologies we can without compromising our diplomatic or trade relations with other civs.

4) Vox agrees not to disband what's left of their cities after their building and pop rushing.

Such an agreement would greatly reduce the cost of our victory and allow us to use the last few turns of our GA for peaceful building. And it would let Vox escape with enough settlers to build almost as many cities as they have now, although building back to their current size and level of development would take a long time. I don't know whether Vox would be interested in staying in the game under such circumstances or whether they think they could find land they wouldn't be killed for settling on if they would be interested. But if they do want to stay in the game, this could give them a chance at developing into a halfway decent minor power eventually.

	07-06-2003 11:50									#2
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I think this is a great idea. Hell we could even build the stlrs for them.

What are the chances we could get them over to lego?

	07-06-2003 12:46									#3
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Settlers disband into workers when captured, so we could not simply build settlers for them. And building cities to gift to them, besides being something of an exploit, would be impossible to mask unless we could find Vox some land that no one else knows about. If Vox can't build enough settlers quickly enough, a better approach would probably be just to let them keep their last two or three cities longer. (Of course if Vox has a granary in The Voice, they have four-turn settler pump potential even without a GA or pop rushing; we'd just have to explain to them how to use it.)

	07-06-2003 13:27									#4
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I don't think we should do this.

Firstly, an offer like this is very close to an insult. We can't afford this diplomatically, at least not yet. When they have 2-3 cities left, maybe.

And second, like Aeson pointed out, it is better to completely eliminate the only scientists in this game, or we might end up with a serious disadvantage, when we enter the industrial age.

	07-06-2003 13:48									#5
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I have this weakness- I just can't go ahead and deliver the "killing blow". I find it hard in personal life, and also in this game when playing against humans.

But I think Vox should be given a chance to stay in the game if they want to, without much of a trouble for us (except the Tech issue).

They might find some land to the North of Lego, though...

	07-06-2003 13:49									#6
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We can add a clause that Vox will give us their bonus industrial tech, along with a commitment to normalized relations until that time.

	07-06-2003 13:55									#7
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Vox can not be trusted.

	07-06-2003 14:25									#8
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They're not bad people. They're not committed to lying. They were mainly just pushed into attacking us.
They've learned their lesson, that provoking and messing with us will only backfire. I'm inclined to include a clause that will state that Vox will have to give us their bonus industrial tech for free.

	07-06-2003 15:48									#9
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I'm nearly crying.

I wouldn't trust again somebody, who already stabbed a knife in my back, even if he promised not to do it again.

Vox on our continent is a big security risk, not because they could attack again, but because they hold a grudge against us and might allow the massive landing of Bobian civs on their territory without us being able to do anything against that.

Vox on another continent is a security risk, because they can and will deny us Nationalism.

Shiber, since Eli is your personal friend, I can understand your feelings, but I would expect you to abstain in this discussion. I don't accuse you to be illoyal or a Vox advocate, you are certainly not, but your (wanted or unwanted) bias is too obvious. I would abstain, if it came to discussions concerning a war against ND, even though I'm practically inactive in the ISDG.

Vox delenda est. Hispania delenda est. Nothing else.

	07-06-2003 16:08									#10
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Eli is nowhere near my personal friend, and I have no positive feelings toward Vox or any of its members in particular.

I think that you're being way too hawkish. There is much to gain from such an agreement - less casualties (possibly ~15 MedInfs and 5-10 pikes can be spared), getting Nationalism for free, being able to ready ourselves to strike at Spain by the time that the UUs come online and war on Bob begins.

	07-06-2003 16:51									#11
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The really huge gain from the proposed deal is getting about a five-turn golden age head start, maybe even more, on the entire Courthouse, Aqueduct, Harbor, Library, Marketplace build chain. That alone should provide us with benefits exceeding the market price of Nationalism even if Vox breaks its promise to give it to us. And we could make it part of our agreement with Vox that should they violate their commitment to provide us with Nationalism, no NDA they sign with any other team will be considered valid. Further, consider the relative advantage if we get Nationalism for free while other teams have to pay for it.

By the way, I view personal relationships with people on other teams as something potentially useful as long as players are careful to put our team's needs and interests first. Diplomacy is easier when you have some insight into the personalities and attitudes of the people you are dealing with.

	07-06-2003 17:32									#12
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I think Vox would say 'yah you get Nationalism for free' with any peace treaty they agree to, and then we end up the only civ not getting it for free. Two of their motivations for attacking us was that they felt our border treaty wasn't fair and that our renegotiation of the tech sharing wasn't fair. I can't see that they'd find a 'you can have peace as long as you get off our continent' peace treaty as fair.

They sound like they are willing to give up Dissidentville... which isn't a concession at all. They've been pop rushing there, and it's probably all but useless for the next 20 turns. I'd rather they disband it. Inchon and Inchoff have for all intents and purposes claimed that land at this point anyways.

The only way I could see them working with us (ie. we get Nationalism, no one else does) is if we go to war with Bob to claim land for Vox, which we definitely shouldn't do.

	07-06-2003 17:34									#13
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quote: I spoke with Eli. We had a casual chat about school and finals (we're friends outside of the PTWDG) when he congratulated me for GS's success.

quote: Eli is nowhere near my personal friend, and I have no positive feelings toward Vox or any of its members in particular.

Well, whatever you say... Though it's a bit confusing, or should I say, Voxish?

quote: I think that you're being way too hawkish.

I am what I am.

quote: There is much to gain from such an agreement -

Hmmm, let's see...

quote: less casualties (possibly ~15 MedInfs and 5-10 pikes can be spared)

Who gives a damn? We had planned to kill them even before they attacked us, so now let's fulfill our destiny.

quote: getting Nationalism for free

Which is far from being sure

quote: being able to ready ourselves to strike at Spain by the time that the UUs come online and war on Bob begins.

One doesn't exclude the other. The weaker Vox gets, the less units we'll need. and the more we have to spare for other purposes.

	07-06-2003 17:55									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Well, whatever you say... Though it's a bit confusing, or should I say, Voxish?

Whoa, crossed a line there buddy. I don't appreciate being compared to our obnoxious enemy.

I have a lot of things in common with Eli (we both major in the same subjects (computers and physics), we both applied for the same special programs in the military academic reserve etc'), but I don't think very highly of him.

quote: Who gives a damn? We had planned to kill them even before they attacked us, so now let's fulfill our destiny.

I give a damn. I want to preserve those 10-15 medinfs and 5-10 pikes so we could use them against RP (we'll need everything that we can muster).

quote: Which is far from being sure

As Nathan said, even if Vox won't keep their word (again) and won't deliver Nationalism, the value of using the rest of our GA for peaceful building equals or even exceeds that of Nationalism.

	07-06-2003 18:30									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Whoa, crossed a line there buddy. I don't appreciate being compared to our obnoxious enemy.

I am nobody's "buddy". And the best way not to be compared with Vox is not to behave like Vox, i.e. to say today the opposite from what was valid yesterday. I don't give a damn about your relations with Eli, but at least you should decide whether you are his friend or not.

quote: I give a damn. I want to preserve those 10-15 medinfs and 5-10 pikes so we could use them against RP (we'll need everything that we can muster).

Medieval infantries aren't very good for invasions, they are too slow and give the enemy too many time to maneuver. They also don't retreat and aren't upgradable, at least to nothing useful. They are a waste of upkeep money and the best to do with them is to let them bonk some Voxian head.

quote: As Nathan said, even if Vox won't keep their word (again) and won't deliver Nationalism, the value of using the rest of our GA for peaceful building equals or even exceeds that of Nationalism.

I wouldn't sign this. Nationalism is worth at least 4 turns research, and probably even more, since it is twice as expensive as a late medieval advance and with less land (or with many, but corrupt land) we won't be able to research it in 4 turns. The threat not to acknowledge any NDA means absolutely nothing, because I suppose that the potential sellers will acknowledge it. They will do all what hurts us.

	07-06-2003 18:48									#16
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I'm not going to continue arguing if it turns personal.
I am in noone's side but the teams. I make decisions with what I think is the team's best interest in mind, and no other considerations.
Anyway, I've made myself clear - I am in favor of Nathan's plan as a concept. I do think that you make a good point regarding the usefulness of MedInfs as naval invaders and as units in general in the future, but I still support Nathan's concept for a plan. However, if the team rejects this concept then I won't argue anymore.

	07-06-2003 19:07									#17
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Sir Ralph, I think there may be a language issue here. My impression is that there is a fairly wide range of views regarding how well people feel like they need to know someone before they consider the person a "friend" rather than just someone they know. I see nothing inconsistent about Shiber's enjoying chatting with Eli occasionally but not classifying him as a friend; it all depends on where Shiber draws that line in his own mind.

The real question is whether Shiber's acquanitanceship with Eli is close enough to compromise his objectivity to any serious degree. I see no evidence that it is.

Regarding the value of Medieval Infantry, slow-movers in general seem far more valuable in MP than in SP. For knights to have a significant maneuver advantage over MedInfs, they would have to approach without the protection of pikes. That's a whole lot safer in SP than it is in MP. And MedInfs can do fine for helping to defend cities by counterattacking units that attack the cities. All in all, the idea of viewing MedInfs as throwaway units that we would be just as well off without appalls me.

Regarding the relative value of building vs. Nationalism, keep in mind that we would be either buying Nationalism at a fraction of its research cost or researching it at a last-researcher price not much if any over half the first-researcher price. So what would take eight turns to research in an SP game where we're in first place would take no more than four here, all else being equal. (Not that all else will necessarily be quite equal, given the larger militaries needed in MP.) And if we're getting Chieftain research prices instead of Emperor research prices, that would also create a skew toward significantly faster research times than we're used to from SP.

Further, the economic benefit of building instead of fighting is something we get now, and thus something we can leverage for medieval warfare if we get in a fight before the industrial era. In contrast, ensuring that Vox can't shaft us on Nationalism becomes relevant significantly later in the game.

Regarding whether other civs would honor NDAs with Vox even though the NDAs themselves are a violation of Vox's treaty obligations with us, that's an interesting issue. After all, the other teams would have to worry about whether if they don't violate it, one of their neighbors will, in which case the other civ would be the one to profit from selling us the tech.

And finally, the benefits of being able to shift back to building sooner are definite, while the risk of being shafted on Nationalism is merely possible. The average expected outcome of letting Vox evacuate to another location must take into account both the possibility that Vox will betray us again and the possibility that they won't.

Edit: not only do knights lose their ability to be covered by pikes if they take full advantage of their speed, but they also lose their ability to be covered by catapults - and to have those catapults break down city walls (if any) before the knights start attacking.

Last edited by nbarclay on 07-06-2003 at 19:16

	07-06-2003 19:15									#18
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One thing that I completely forgot: IMHO, the arguments against this plan regarding to Nationalism are completely irrelevant.
IMHO, there is no question whether Vox will survive after this war is over. If we don't let them survive, they will promise their bonus tech to Lego or RP and get a gifted city (we're not the only ones that noticed that Vox is scientific). Then we'd be handing over Nationalism to our enemies.
IMHO it's better to have a shot at getting Nationalism for free than to throw that chance away and let RP or Lego embrace Vox while holding with a knife at their throat and secure the bonus tech to themselves. One thing is certain - we cannot kill the last scientific civ through this war.

	07-06-2003 19:20									#19
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Shiber, whether we can kill Vox through this war depends largely on whether Vox would want to go on living under the kind of conditions you describe. If the ability we'd offer to have extra settlers makes it worth living for them when otherwise, they'd just as soon have us put them out of their misery, that could set up a situation where Sir Ralph's concerns are relevant.

Then again, even if Vox evacuates, there's no guarantee that they will survive through the end of the medieval era.

	07-06-2003 19:45									#20
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Sir Ralph, I think there may be a language issue here. My impression is that there is a fairly wide range of views regarding how well people feel like they need to know someone before they consider the person a "friend" rather than just someone they know. I see nothing inconsistent about Shiber's enjoying chatting with Eli occasionally but not classifying him as a friend; it all depends on where Shiber draws that line in his own mind.

I'm aware of the wide span of meanings of the word "friend". I consider myself a personal friend of some Apolyton posters, but not close enough to be their buddy, that may serve as example. However, the sentences "we're friends outside of the PTWDG" and "Eli is nowhere near my personal friend" contradict each other. With less good will I could even say, one of them is a lie. Hence my confusion.

What you say about the usefulness of medieval infantry may be valid, granted, and a lot also depends on terrain and how they are used. A medieval infantry plus a pikeman have the same stats as a knight and cost the same production-wise. But they cost double upkeep (which can sum up to dozens of gpt), do not retreat and move half as fast. Their only advantage over a knight is, that they need at least two attackers to be killed. The usage as extended city defenders, as you propose, is a good variant, but we don't need too many units for this purpose. At least it is not a reason to pay the upkeep for a large standing army of medieval infantry during the preparations. A small amount left over from the elimination of Vox will suffice. They are not the main assault units.

Re Nationalism: Even if we can research Nationalism cheaply, we still will lose at least 4 valuable turns in the race for the ToE.

	07-06-2003 19:46									#21
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I'm assuming that if a civ would allow Vox to evacuate, they would guard Vox's city as if they were a coupon for getting Nationalism for free.
Still, you're right, there's no 100% guarantee.

	07-06-2003 19:49									#22
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By the way, this discussion is futile. Vox will never agree to conditions like this, and it is far from sure that the other teams let them settle on their land.

	07-06-2003 19:51									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I'm assuming that if a civ would allow Vox to evacuate, they would guard Vox's city as if they were a coupon for getting Nationalism for free. Still, you're right, there's no 100% guarantee.

You mean the way Vox guarded Lux's city?

	07-06-2003 19:53									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I'm aware of the wide span of meanings of the word "friend". I consider myself a personal friend of some Apolyton posters, but not close enough to be their buddy, that may serve as example. However, the sentences "we're friends outside of the PTWDG" and "Eli is nowhere near my personal friend" contradict each other. With less good will I could even say, one of them is a lie. Hence my confusion.

Will you drop it already?

Sir Ralph, I am not a close friend of Eli. We speak on ICQ, but mostly because we have many things in common in the academic aspect of life, not because we like each other. I am his friend, but not a close friend (or a "personal friend", in the words that I previously used - there's a language issue here. Transitions from Hebrew to English can be difficult, they are from two separate branches of human language, you have no idea how different the two languages are).
Anyway, I apologize if I wasn't clear enough (since I'm not a native English speaker, it is my duty to make sure that what I say is clear and unambiguous to a reasonable level). But I think that you owe me an apology as well, for implying that I might betray the team, which I regard as a harsh insult of (prep?) my character.

	07-06-2003 19:58									#25
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay You mean the way Vox guarded Lux's city?

Let's not assume that the other teams can be as stupid as that.

	07-06-2003 20:07									#26
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Cool it, guys.

Anyway, I agree with SR... if we are going to consider a "boat people" solution ( ), it won't make sense to offer it until Vox has at most 3 cities left.

BTW, I am not totally averse to this; sowing confusion on the rest of the world is a good thing.

	07-06-2003 20:15									#27
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If we wait until Vox has at most three cities left, we'll forfeit practically all the advantage we could get from such an arrangement in terms of changing to builder mode sooner. By the time Vox is down to three cities, we'll have more than enough forces to take those last three without building additional troops. Under those circumstances, I'd rather just finish Vox off (assuming they won't regard starting over with a single city as worthwhile).

	07-06-2003 20:29									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber But I think that you owe me an apology as well, for implying that I might betray the team, which I regard as a harsh insult of (prep?) my character.

I'm not thinking of apologizing for something I did neither say nor imply. At the countrary, I said as preamble very clear, that I do not accuse you to be illoyal or a Vox advocate. The word "Voxish" was used as synonym for "confusing", as explained in the same sentence. If I would accuse you to betray the team (which I do not, just to be clear), be assured, I would say it outright instead of resorting to insinuations.

I accept your explanation concerning your relation to Eli. Your apology was likewise unnecessary.

	07-06-2003 20:32									#29
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Thanks, and sorry for the misunderstanding.

	07-06-2003 20:33									#30
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Nathan, I'm just looking at the screenshot, so I can't count... if we take out everything up through Beta-by-the-Sea and Harry's Hideout, how many cities does that leave Vox?