08-06-2003 03:37									#1
	Some Warcraft III strategy help... Get a bigger avatar today!

WC3 is strangely the only RTS game I cant seem to own my friends in. Perhaps its because my laptop cant run it

Anyways I've been recently getting serious practice time now on warforge and have decided on the undeads as my main race. I just love the zerg/protoss-ish style of playing. Any advice on how to play a proper undead game is appreciated.

Im currently playing Frozen throne on Warforge, so any FT strat advice is appreciated.

Few things Ive learned over the weeks:

-I hate how the hero is such a big part of the battle (never liked having a central figure in RTS) and they can turn tides of battle. But they arent Gods! They can die pretty quickly. (as I have learned while back). Kudos to Blizz for such a balance (even though Im not liking the hero concept still)

-Trapping hero is super duper easy with ghouls and should be mastered. Arthras as first hero seems to be much better than lich or dreadlord (which was my initial choice).

-Ghouls roxor, but bringing abomination into the game ASAP is crucial. (more so than going for necros as I always do)

-Steam tank rush seems to be unstoppable so far. Ive had the honor of my friend demonstrating this on me 3 times and I just dont have enough experience to counter such strategy. Dammit, its usually me thats introducing new things to him and pissing him off. any ideas?

-Dragons dont roxor. They arent actually worth building 90% of the time (dammit)

-Whats the optimal build order for first 3 min? Im still experimenting on this one.

-Necros RULE!!! (especially more so on frozen throne).

	08-06-2003 07:11									#2
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quote: Im currently playing Frozen throne

That's not even out yet.

	08-06-2003 07:50									#3
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As far as I can tell, Warcraft 3 is a more complicated version of rock-paper-scissors. That means a race will trump another one while getting smashed by another. So, suppose Undeads could rule Dark Elfs but get stomped by Orcs. And so forth.

	08-06-2003 09:54									#4
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UR: No, not even close. Sure, there are counters, but it's not by the races. Every race has an answer somewhere, and some units are more flexible than others.

0: Well, I don't know about Frozen Throne rebalances, but Steam Tanks should not be a problem. Just don't rely on static defenses! Surround them with your troops so they can't move if possible and just beat on them. Suppose your opponent and you are at the same supply (important difference here, your opponent might be beating you just due to more troops), if your opponent has brought along 3 Steam Tanks which are useless for fighting your army sucking up a massive amount of supply, your army should kick their army's butt, allowing you to easily surround the steam tanks and wipe them out- and then go attack their base while their hero is reviving and you have an army (but they don't).

	08-06-2003 20:24									#5
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: Im currently playing Frozen throne That's not even out yet.

eh? it's been on the net for a few months now.

Maybe just a beta version.

	08-06-2003 21:18									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld eh? it's been on the net for a few months now. Maybe just a beta version.

I said I was playing on warforge. I wonder why Im not playing it in Bnet?

	08-06-2003 21:27									#7
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire 0: Well, I don't know about Frozen Throne rebalances, but Steam Tanks should not be a problem. Just don't rely on static defenses! Surround them with your troops so they can't move if possible and just beat on them. Suppose your opponent and you are at the same supply (important difference here, your opponent might be beating you just due to more troops), if your opponent has brought along 3 Steam Tanks which are useless for fighting your army sucking up a massive amount of supply, your army should kick their army's butt, allowing you to easily surround the steam tanks and wipe them out- and then go attack their base while their hero is reviving and you have an army (but they don't).

No, Not 3. He's managing 8-10!

And I havent relied on static defense since SC. But even so, that fool will kamikaze into my base ignoring my forces. It works rather well. I'm guessing such tactic would still be worth a try even when I figure out how to effectively negate it. (for net damage during close games etc)

I know, theoratically, he doesnt have an army and it should balance things out, but his strategy is very well refined and it doesnt really work that way. Its like an extremly well refined kamikaze attack I tell ya.

Or maybe its just that I build things slower. He is alot better than me still but in regular games I dont notice such a drastic skill difference. Just when he's using steam tanks (and orcs... :shudder: )

	08-06-2003 21:32									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger As far as I can tell, Warcraft 3 is a more complicated version of rock-paper-scissors. That means a race will trump another one while getting smashed by another. So, suppose Undeads could rule Dark Elfs but get stomped by Orcs. And so forth.

It's not really true. What is true is that each race tend to have one other race where they have the edge, and one where they struggle a little. But I should emphasise 'edge' is the right term, since the advantages and disadvantages are not that great.

I checked out TFT on Warforge, but earlier on it was too raw, and I decided to wait for retail. I still play Reign of Chaos, which has changed immensely since 1.06 came out to bring Classic in line with TFT.

	08-06-2003 21:36									#9
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike It's not really true. What is true is that each race tend to have one other race where they have the edge, and one where they struggle a little. But I should emphasise 'edge' is the right term, since the advantages and disadvantages are not that great. I checked out TFT on Warforge, but earlier on it was too raw, and I decided to wait for retail. I still play Reign of Chaos, which has changed immensely since 1.06 came out to bring Classic in line with TFT.

TF has been updated to a point in Warforge that its basically a retail version... without the box.

anyways. I would almost argue against even calling it an edge. WC is just like starcraft where most ppl think zergs < Terran < protoss < zerg or vice versa (or whatever strange theory you come up with) , but it really isnt true if you explore the game's strategy further. They always give you units and ability in answer for each race's strategy and you can always exploit them to your advantage. The problem is that your opponent is trying to do the same to you.

	08-06-2003 22:05									#10
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Well I haven't played TFT properly yet, so I'll reserve judgement. But ROC there were many matchups where one side had the edge, although as I said it was just an edge nothing more................I completely disagree with any suggestion that there are large advantages.

For example my race is orc: We have trouble against a similarly skilled elf, and beat a similarly skilled ud more than 50/50 as well. This opinion is shared by many top level players...........check out the interviews on Warcraftstrategy.com.

	08-06-2003 22:09									#11
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well, as long as you dont say "OMG OMG Orc ownz UD". I'd agree wit u. But Im more on the spectrum of "If you practice agst Orcs enough the edge becomes more irrelevant" school of thoguht.

I have trouble agst Orcs too (I play UD exclusively)

	09-06-2003 05:53									#12
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It seems as Lich King is really popular in bnet. And dreadlords have gained popularity since ROC (I heard that carrion swarm hits infinite number of target as long as targets are within strike zone! )

Im still perfecting my style with arthras and working on early hero VS hero battle (with help of ghouls surrounding his ass ) Death coil roxor! So after that Im gonna give my old time favorite(dreadlords) a try.

The new UD hero sucks. At least it seems like it so far.....

Neutral heros are gr8, but I still prefer faction specific heros to start with.

	09-06-2003 07:26									#13
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire UR: No, not even close. Sure, there are counters, but it's not by the races. Every race has an answer somewhere, and some units are more flexible than others

It's not an automatic win for one side of course, and the edge (thanks DrSpike) seems more subtle than Starcraft. Still, it is there.

	09-06-2003 15:54									#14
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You're welcome UR.

Soon the discussion will change to imbalances in TFT anyway...........in the beta ud have been the most powerful race so far (although one would expect the retail version to soon reach a position of relative balance like ROC) so Zero should be happy.

	14-06-2003 08:28									#15
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quote: No, Not 3. He's managing 8-10! And I havent relied on static defense since SC. But even so, that fool will kamikaze into my base ignoring my forces. It works rather well. I'm guessing such tactic would still be worth a try even when I figure out how to effectively negate it. (for net damage during close games etc) I know, theoratically, he doesnt have an army and it should balance things out, but his strategy is very well refined and it doesnt really work that way. Its like an extremly well refined kamikaze attack I tell ya. Or maybe its just that I build things slower. He is alot better than me still but in regular games I dont notice such a drastic skill difference. Just when he's using steam tanks (and orcs... :shudder: )

Its like a nuke, it takes a long time to build and uses a lot of resources, the end result; the enemy now has to rebuild everything, and I can storm his dumb-butt with crappy units because I dont have to worry about him attacking "Muahaha"

a good thing to do to prevent him from doing that is sending small troops of units over to kill off his tanks as he builds them. or do your own kamikaze, try crapping out a lot of dinky crappy units and a hero or two then rush over to him before he can crank out his last tank.

Really its up to you to beat him, we can give you all the advice you need and then some, but if you cant make those split second desicions on the field of battle then you're as good as dog food.

hope that helps

	17-06-2003 02:53									#16
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Undead is my favorite.

I start by sending the 3 aco's to gold, start cutting wood, cue one aco

Build a zig, crypt, altar.

When I have enough build 5th aco (it's pretty close to being just after the 4th is done).

Build 2nd zig when I have the lumber.

Build 3 ghouls as soon as I can, get them chopping.

Build a DL.

Build a graveyard.

Build 2 more ghouls.

Research cannabalize.

Go creeping with DL and 4 ghouls (if there are lesser creeps on the map).

Build 2 fiends.

Upgrade to halls,

Build 2 more fiends.

When halls finished, make lich.

I like to go with 3 heros as UD.

As for the steam tank defense. That's tough, somebody did it to me. I tried it on somebody else, and it almost worked I think he had more units to defend than I did. The secret is to try and block access to your buildings with units. If you know he is going to do it build a few meat wagons, they will rip up tanks.

	17-06-2003 03:19									#17
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Tanks are rarely used by good players these days...........they were nerfed slightly after abuse in an earlier patch, and now they are too easy to counter.