09-06-2003 02:08									#1
	Put an end to popups!

Even without the pop cap, spy and oil bonuses you want, it's a completely unbalanced wonder.

I don't think its needs fixing, but if you must do so perhaps this works;

Increases attrition by 25% (but doesn't negate Statue of Liberty or Supply Wagon unit healing effects)
Increases border influence of temples
Reduced Fortress research by 25% (after all Russians are good at tactics and spying)

	09-06-2003 02:22									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: The Kremlin Wonder raises your Commerce level for Food, Timber, and Metal by +200. It also increases the number of farms per city (normally five) by two, as well as the number of workers per Woodcutter and Mine, by the same number. The Kremlin also doubles the damage suffered by unsupplied enemy units while in your territory. And, finally, if you build the Kremlin, you gain the use of an extra Spy who is not counted against your population limit. If this Spy is killed, he is automatically rebuilt at no cost.

That's a damn fine wonder! Certainly not weak.

http://www.microsoft.com/games/rise...ers_kremlin.asp

	09-06-2003 02:33									#3
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Actually, it looks like you don't get extra farms and wood/metal slots, that must have been taken out. All other things are still great though!

	09-06-2003 05:05									#4
	Remove this text

No offense, but your nuts.


Kremlin is my favorite wonder, +200 caps on your economy is huge. The spy is rather pointless, but the attrition is useful.

Still the best wonder that you can get at that stage in the game, IMO.

	09-06-2003 12:36									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Dude, if you always play with "see everything" on, you're not the right person to rate ANY wonders.

	09-06-2003 15:00									#6
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The Kremlin gives you quite a few wonder points too. Built it for that if you are going for a wonder victory.

	09-06-2003 16:09									#7
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If you think 2 extra slots on resource piles is better than +200 commerce cap u seriously dont understand RoN at all....

Anyone who only plays with "see everything" on shouldnt be so presumptious to offer balance suggestions either. You obviously havnt been online. The Kremlin is completely worth it.

Anyone whos worth their salt will tell u how good the Kremlin is.

	09-06-2003 18:32									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Whoa there.

'see everything' is a very usefull tool for learning to play an RTS. It takes exploring out and allows you to concentrate on other aspects until you are ready.

I think that 2 extra slots could be better in certain circumstances (ie few mountains or forests make it impossible to hit the max to begin with) The fact that it was removed lends me to believe that it was considered too powerful to begin with.

I think a compromise would have been better, say +100 to the caps and add 1 slot instead of 2.

Tass, though

The very fact that you play with see everything speeks to the usefulness of the space program, does it not? You are essentially giving yourself it's major benefit for free....

	09-06-2003 22:55									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Dude, you'd rather have 2 extra miner slots rather than +200 mine cap? wtf are you going to do with those 2 extra slots when your at the cap already? I don't think your running your economy correctly. I *always* have more room for food/wood expansion (and sometimes metal, depends on the map) but i'm always hitting the cap. +200 cap is insane. If anything this wonder is overpowered, not underpowered (don't forget the extra double attrition it does to your enemies!)

The spy thing is also really cool.

	10-06-2003 19:34									#10
	Suffering from ads?

depends ofcourse on the timeframe.. those +x on caps dont help you past 999.. and (might be my strat) i tend to hit last Age before building the kremlin.....

ofcourse.. i only played the demo

	10-06-2003 20:52									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

yes bridger right, seeing that each citizen collects 10 units per time period. +200 cap on 3 resources equal 20x3 =60 extra citizens u can out to work. Increasing the food/wood and metal slots by two per city at 8 cities only give u 48 extra citizens to work but if your cap isnt increased also that 48 villagers taking pop cap for no use.

	11-06-2003 04:28									#12
	Put an end to popups!

i havnt seen a single game with see all on... play with the standard settings, thats what the game is balanced on. Seeing everything is the ability of an Info Age wonder, and you just take that for free every game.

Also, you argument about researching commerce is faulty. Yes you research commerce to increase caps, but Kremlin adds +200 to those caps which commerce cant. So i dont understand how you consider researching commerce+0 as useful as commerce+200.

	11-06-2003 07:43									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Are you friggin crazy? KREMLIN IS THE BOMB DIGGITY! Seriously people! The spy thing is kinda cool, the res cap bonus can be really handy, but the attrition is CRAZY! Maybe its just me and the fact that I scream "for mother Russia!" whenever I play, but this thing HURTS. Sure, supply wagons, blah de blah... people, supply wagons drop like flies! Send some light cav to rip em apart, use some ranged units, maybe even planes. Hell, I've been known to launch missiles at my opponents last supply truck. Atrittion will decimate an army. At the very least, they will retreat. I guess, if you're on offence all the time, or winning the game, it doesn't help, but the Kremlin can really turn the tide.

	11-06-2003 08:58									#14
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right tassadar, you dirty russian.

to couter your argument i propose that the statue of liberty be given the powers of every other wonder, and that the torch be replaced with a laser rifle capable of destroying entire cities across the map, razing them to the ground. also, it should be free.

Last edited by Inverse Icarus on 11-06-2003 at 09:10

	11-06-2003 12:35									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Actualy, the Kremlin in the game isn't THE KREMLIN. The building is St. Basil's Cathedral, just outside the Kremlin's walls.
It was build in celebration of the Russian victory over the Tartars.
What's the conection with the free spy?

	12-06-2003 00:20									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Flayer ...Seeing everything is the ability of an Info Age wonder, and you just take that for free every game.

Not quite the same as I assume that everyone will be seeing everything with that option turned on. Only the spanish propably don't like this option

	12-06-2003 01:51									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Meh, I dont really like wonder victories. It's like cultural victories in Civ3.....They seem like a nice idea while your in the setup screen, but they seem to pop in just as your about to send over your HUGE army using brilliant tactics against enemy cities.

This is why I finally decided to stop playing the amazing demo and buy the full version of the game

	12-06-2003 03:05									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX right tassadar, you dirty russian. to couter your argument i propose that the statue of liberty be given the powers of every other wonder, and that the torch be replaced with a laser rifle capable of destroying entire cities across the map, razing them to the ground. also, it should be free.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! INDEED!

- PTM

	12-06-2003 11:04									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Technically it isn't that either. It's the Cathedral of St. Basil the Blessed

	12-06-2003 11:15									#20
	Put an end to popups!

Kremlin is nice. I don't know why people are bashing it. +200 cap is outstandingly useful because you can easily get Kremlin WAY before you can hope to get commerce researched up to +999.

Also, the more attrition the better. Couple this with Level 4 Keep research on attrition and Collosus and attrition eats their forces away very quickly. It'll make any invading army think twice.

- PTM

	12-06-2003 19:43									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The Kremlin is a well oiled sex machine of a wonder...'nuff said