09-06-2003 17:56									#1
	Carch vs UberKrux vs AlbieDamned: Assassin Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Carch, UberKrux, and I played an Assassin game last night. I played very poorly and wound up resigning. I would love to hear from Carch or Uber regarding who ultimately won.

The Assassin format presented several challenges that I did not handle well at all. Carch was my assassin, while Uber was my target. Carch opened his attack on me by bombarding a Fort I had constructed near the border. His seige weapons were actually on his side of the border. I naturally sent in the cavalry after his siege, only to remember the "severe" attrition damage you take for entering anyone's territory other than your target's. So I had to withdraw, and basically allow him to knock down the fort. The only thing I could have done was target my own seige weapons on his, but unfortunately I hadn't built any seige on my defensive front. This problem repeated itself in different variations throughout the game for me. I had my troops in defensive stance most of the time, however even still, they would have a tendency to cross the border when engaged with Carch's invaders. I could not figure out how to keep them from crossing the border without using Stand Ground stance, which of course exposes me to easy flanking. So I had to either accept the severe attrition, or constantly back my troops away from the border and allow Carch a free ride on my buildings near the border.

Meantime, on the attack, Uber had figured out a clever way to work around the severe attrition damage. As I built up my attack force, Uber of course could not send in troops to engage them preemptively. However he did send in a continuous series of spies. The spies all died quickly, as I had scouts so my troops were able to see the spies and open fire immediately. However it allowed Uber to keep track of exactly what forces I had and where they were headed. I tried to be sneaky and crawl along the edge of the map until I had a straight shot at his capital, bypassing his outer cities. Assassin is always Sudden Death capital elimination (lose your capital for a second and you're out), so normally my idea would be a good one. However Uber was completely aware of my tactics due to his reconnaisance, and he met my invaders outside his capital with a force that had to be twice the size of mine.

This leads me to another point. I had basically built two armies, one to defend against Carch, and one to attack Uber. They both lost. Given the size of the force that Uber used to defend against my invasion, I suspect he wasn't attacking Carch at all yet. This aspect of Assassin basically boils down to "do you feel lucky today?" I could have concentrated all my forces in just one army and sent it to attack Uber, leaving myself totally exposed to an attack from Carch. Or I could have built a totally defensive army and ignored Uber, just playing defense against Carch until Uber eventually (hopefully) attacked and eliminated Carch. But I chose to try to do both, and it wound up costing me both battles. I suspect Uber chose to play defense only for a long time, presumably until he had nukes. With my split army, my invasion had no chance

Later in the game, Uber used another clever way to get around the severe attrition damage rule. Carch was knocking on the doorstep of my capital when Uber hit Modern (Carch and I were still Industrial). I told Carch that Uber was probably getting ready to nuke (you know, cult of the ICBM and all that). Carch realized the danger and called off his attack on me. He said we shoud go get Uber's oil sources. But of course Carch himself couldn't do anything about it since he couldn't invade Uber. I tried to muster another invasion force to go after Uber, but I was so far behind at this point that Uber slaughtered me. I suspect that Uber still hadn't attacked Carch yet. Anyway back to the clever part, Uber did in fact build nukes. But instead of nuking Carch, he nuked me! The severe attrition damage does not apply to missles. You can target whoever you want apparently.

I eventually resigned, mostly as a favor to Carch. Once I resigned, he would be allowed to attack Uber directly without the severe attrition damage. I was so far behind anyway that my fate was inevitable.

I definitely learned a lot about what not to do in Assassin games. I would love to hear from Carch and Uber, regarding who eventually won and their take on the game in general.

	09-06-2003 18:54									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

Uhh, where's the replay ?

	09-06-2003 19:17									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

My replay is incomplete since it cuts out when I resigned. Hopefully Carch or Uber can post the full replay; otherwise I'll post what I have tonight (I'm at work now). It's pretty embarassing since I played so poorly, but maybe it will help some other poor souls learn what not to do in Assassin.

	09-06-2003 20:17									#4
	Put an end to popups!

in my first assassian game i messed up too attacked my assassin instead of my target.

	10-06-2003 07:24									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Apparently Uber was banned , but he just sent me the full replay. Haven't watched it myself yet, so I don't know who won. It's zipped.

Attachment: acs.zip
This has been downloaded 39 time(s).

	10-06-2003 08:54									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Uber banned -- AGAIN?!
I thought he had cleaned up his act since he left the Civ3 forums.

	10-06-2003 13:52									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Not much to add to what Albie said there, except that Uber won by nuking and walking into my capital.

God I hate nukes.

I tried everything to fight off his nukes, too -- built a ton of cruise missiles, shot every silo, oil well, refinery and university I could see, but my recon was imperfect. I was going all out for Uber's capital so I had no defense force at home. I figured I could get back if I had fair warning.

You may think I'm bitter because I lost, but that's really not the case -- watch the replay and tell me if the end isn't a bit anticlimactic.

Nukes suck.

	10-06-2003 15:46									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well, I'm a total n00b when it comes to RTS (especially MP), but it seemed to me that you could have done a little more in terms of defense. The only defensive structures you built were on the border with albiedamned while you knew any danger was gonna come from UberKruX. I think that final infantry assault by Uber was intended for your silos, but when he saw the path to the capital was wide open, he took advantage of that opportunity to wrap things up. By the time they reached your capital, most of his units were badly damaged due to attrition - a single Fortress and one or two Towers would probably have stopped the attack dead in its track (heck, their sheer presence might well have deterred Uber from attacking the capital in the first place)...

Of course, that's easy to say in hindsight...

Also, personally I think I would have attacked albie's capital right after you took that other city, tried to take him out of the game ASAP so you could focus entirely on Uber. You seemed to have the firepower to do it... But then again, like I said, I'm a n00b so that might just as well have been suicide...

	10-06-2003 23:41									#9
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Good points, not noobish at all

I didn't go for ablie's throat because I thought he could help slow down Uber's nukes.

Fortresses & towers would not have helped at home. The nuke instantly reduced the city to zero, and as many troops as he had there would have outnumbered the fortresses & towers and still taken the city.

I usually play "best defense is a good offense". In a conventional attack, I would have been able to get my army home to defend the capital in time, and would have crushed that invasion. Uber didn't have anything that could stop my army from reaching his capital, hence the counter-assault and final nuke.

Here's another reason why nukes suck .. even if I'd had a defending force at my capital, if they'd been close enough to defend the city, the nuke would have wasted them.

Last edited by Carch on 10-06-2003 at 23:47

	11-06-2003 00:14									#10
	Tired of ads?

I watched the replay, and I confirmed my suspicions about Uber's early game tactics. Uber did not threaten Carch whatsoever. His entire force was put on his defensive front against me. In fact he had no cavalry at all, mostly just gunpowder infantry with a few heavy infantry. Given this all out defense, there was no way my attack could have succeeded (even if Uber hadn't seen it coming). So my best bet would have been to play all out defense myself, in which case I probably could have withstood Carch's attack much more easily.

Unfortunately, the lesson I learned from this is that if you don't play all out defense in Assassin, you are taking a huge risk. But if everyone learns this lesson, then Assassin games are going to become very boring. It will basically just be pure defense with no attacks until someone gets to nukes first. Then you can just nuke your target's capital and rush in for the quick win, like Uber did to Carch.

	11-06-2003 02:31									#11
	Support Apolyton

i'm unbanned, yay!

this is only my second assassin game, and i was quite afraid of the insta-kill capital elimination, so i set up a very large scouting network. I was poising myself to attack, when I saw albie building up, and i basically just shifted my forces to defend. As time rolled on, i realized i was close to missles and started getting some. then i realized i'm a moron and my missles were out of range, so i launched at something random (i think it was a university) to free up the silo.

the end of the game, i'm not proud of at all. I started heading toards the silos, and saw there was little stopping me from marching onwards. then i also saw his force heading to my own lands, so i said screw the silos and lets go for the victory, and it worked.

again, instant elim is horrible, in my opinion.

i also have a lot of fun watchign replays with the "locked" option on, so i see what you're looking at. it's too bad it doesnt show me what buildings you clicked on / what you did in them.

	11-06-2003 02:31									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Uber banned -- AGAIN?! I thought he had cleaned up his act since he left the Civ3 forums.

i get banned every few months. no 6 month ones anymore though.