09-06-2003 20:29									#1
	Alright... silly buggers wanna fight! Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Ok... am trying a nice kill-everything-I-see game.

I'm playing the Celts on a large map with random civs. Got a juicy start (after 3 attempts at random maps which put me on islands by myself - hard to kill anyone when you're alone so I had to restart and after three tries choose a continent game.)

I have iron and horsies and 3 lux (but will admit that one of the lux was graciously added to my collection when I liberated 2 Russian towns).

So I'm researching feudalism and Germany is the only civ that's ahead by much ( a couple techs I think) because Russia was very very generous in our peace negotiations. I thought I'd take a moment to recuperate from my Russian expansion and get their lands nicely roaded, etc when Germany got some notion to demand tribute.

Obviously I'm at war with Germany but before I can reach them (France and some blue color (perhaps Vikings, can't remember) are between us) - France and England decide to join in the fray. Works well because France is closer so I can trash them on my way to reach Germany (no idea where England is though, they're not on the map I can see.)

But then Zulu demands tribute - I say no - and Russia joins up with them. Both these civs are on the opposite side of my land so now I'm pretty jammed - 2 civs on each side thinking they have a shot at me.

But... my question is... what do I do with this mess since I can't effectively fight 4 nations on opposite sides? Skip my German campaign 'cause they're so far away and focus on eliminating those sassy Russians and also teach the Zulu a lesson? (France has been begging for peace since I wiped out 4 of their no-culture towns on my way to Germany.)

I hate to make peace with those sassy civs! I should just keep pumping out guys and stay defensive toward Russian and Zulu until I punish the Germans, but logically I guess I should pull back from my long trek to Germany and sort out affairs at home.

My lovely 2 pace swordmen are still great for battles but by the time I get my homeland sorted, I expect they won't be up to par to kick German butt... especially after the long trek I have to make to Germany, and because I have to go through France to get to Germany if I make peace with France, they won't let me march through either!

Too many decisions! Why can't I kick all butt at the same time!!! Oh... and not a single GL yet! Lots of battles with elites but nope... nothing. I must have bad luck (like losing 3 of my swordmen-things (whatever they're called) against one French spear in a 1-village. )

	09-06-2003 23:22									#2
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mini, a question

1) What difficulty level?


and 1 comment 1 answer

What you can do is cut your losses. Make peace with the most threatning enemy. Germany? Pay, give techs if you have to. The difficulty level is somehow important to know here since it will affect your strategy slightly, given known AI bonuses. If you're in diety, making peace may be umm.. quite difficult espeically if you're on the losing end.

My comment is, and not to sound bad, but you seem to have placed yourself in this situation. Never take on more than you can chew and always anticipate the AI will bring in others against you.

Oh and BTW, your plan of killing those Russians just got trashed by the AI. In case you still haven't figured it out

	10-06-2003 00:01									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hmmm... was the level above Regent (Monarch IIRC). I don't think I intended to bite off too much but I started the game with the premise that I will not be giving any tributes at all, or making peace if it costs me anything - pure war or I go down in flames.

I'm thinking the Zulus only got involved once they realized my troops were out of town, planning to teach Germany a lesson. (and Russia is still upset over loosing their only iron and some lovely smelling incense to me ... heehehehhe) And that stupid German campaign didn't go well because they're so darn far away and across mountains so my 2 move is no good to me.

Hindsight tells me I should've just squashed a couple French towns along my border, accepted peace from them and then just waited for Germany to drag its own butt halfway across the continent instead of heading out to meet them. Then I'd have lots of nice elite forces prepared for those sassies on my other border!

Now just gotta figure out how to salvage this mess. I'm thinking: peace with France, ignoring Germany until they actually show up near me, enlisting the aid of the light blue civ (Scandies perhaps), wait for Zulus to be willing to accept an even peace (not paying for it though) and then just go finish off those stinky Russians so they won't be able to treat me so badly again...

Well, I'll know tomorrow if my military campaigning blew up in my face...

	10-06-2003 02:43									#4
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You would have to post a save to get any real advice.
Having said that, I love the situation and have been in a few times.
If they have MPP (tech needed) then making peace with any will be a waste until you can get those ended, they will be force to declare again as soon as you attack a unit.
I would ignore all countries not close at hand and just deal with the incursions they send.
I would smash the closes ones first to add the land and allow me to reach the others later. I would prioritize any resources or lux tiles they had.
Sack most of the cities as you can not afford to have troops garrisoned to prevent a flip or revolt.
After you crack the troops they send, those far away ones will want peace. Make them pay something, especially if they will likely be forced to jump in again.
If you do not have the military to handle all those fights, I would have gotten a few in on my side right away.
Not so they would help as they often do not, but to prevent them from coming in against me.
When someone goes to war with me, I first look to see who has ties with them and to see if I want to risk being alone against everyone. If I do, fine, if not get some friends real fast.

	10-06-2003 03:41									#5
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as long as you have troops enough to hold back russia and zulu easily on the one front, I'd say continue to beat up the french since you're already there. Stop when they're willing to give away a good city or two then you can go back home to fight the good fight while making the french cities into worker/settler pumps since you won't have many units there.

	10-06-2003 05:40									#6
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vmxa1 , It might be military alliance, since the war sounds like its relatively early. But my recommendation of making peace still runs into trouble since the AI likely won't break that treaty if they are doing well.

I still think however that with these early wars, you have a bit more leeway to see who you can make peace with since there is no worry with those entangling MPP lunacy

	10-06-2003 07:37									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

That is what I would say as well. It would be a function of my empire strength and layout.
If I was ready and have choke points and secured borders or not.

	10-06-2003 10:34									#8
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Without looking at the maps, I would probably go for a peace agreement with the French if they agreed to give away a couple of cities or tech and all their $ and maps.

Then, I would turn my troops and whack the daylight out of the Zulus. I hate Civilisations who declare War on me and will teach them a lesson any time. Will also station some units at strategic points to ambush the Germans if they chose to cross the French border and attack.

Russian without Iron & horses should be easy meat. Ignore them now. Once you finish the Zulus, you can extort cities, techs, $ from them every 20 turns.

Are the Germans waging war against anybody else ? You may want to give their enemies free $ and techs so that they can keep the Germans occupied.

	10-06-2003 14:17									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Check the military advisor (F3) screen. I assume you have embassies established? The advisor will tell you how your military compares to the AI civs. That will help you decide who to ignore.

The French will probably accept a peace deal quite readily. The English are likely to send a small force. Destroy it and wait a couple of turns and they will probably accept peace. Concentrate your forces and utterly crush the Zulus and Russians. If you can possibly take ALL their cities and eliminate them you won't have to worry about culture flips.

Always have geography in mind. Coasts are relatively easy to defend, especially before caravels/galleons become available. Go for defensible land borders.

	10-06-2003 16:01									#10
	Didn't blow up after all! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Went quite well, actually. French took a peace offer but would only give me 2 techs and their cash on hand, about 73g... but at least they're too broke to bug me for awhile.

Recruited the Scandies to join me since it turns out they are actually between me and Germany and England is North of them... they signed up vs Germany and England for a WM and 360g... Haven't seen either a German or English troop yet, other than a lone spear looking to trash my lux road.

I took the town right next to the Russian capital but have only seen 3 swords and a couple spear so they must really be weak, though they span a pretty good space.

Took 4 Zulu towns and even they wanted peace, which I took for a tech and 140g because, hah, I only have like 15 military units left.

Just before ending for the night I noticed that my celtic sword are replaced by the medival infantry (or whatever they're called)... is this right? In my peacenik game as Carthage could build my NM at the same time I could build tanks...

So now I'm still at war with England and Germany with 5 or 6 alliance turns with Scandies - and I'm alone against the Russians but they don't seem to be much threat. IF I can get some guys built quickly, I'll get up there and take their capital.

Then I was informed that this juicy Korean town (which I can see now that I got a map from someone) has just built Sun Tzu and I happen to know this is the 2nd wonder in that town so... guess where I may just head on up to right after I sort out my current war with Russia. (And, to alleviate the concerns of any non-warring readers, the Koreans also declared war during that allied rollout with Germany and England but since they are on the other side of England I just ignored them... but you can be sure they won't be getting any peace treaties until I have their wonder city. HAH!)

And I have to say this is much more fun than sitting around waiting for them to trade with me, etc... I'm going to go on a Wonder campaign and take/raze any Wonder cities that I can. Will the AI accept a wonder city as a gift? Now that would be kinda fun...

	10-06-2003 17:34									#11
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It is correct. You can build your UU as long as you havn't had your golden age, regardless of them being obsolete.

	10-06-2003 18:03									#12
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we who are about to die salute you!

Love,
Shaka and Catherine

	10-06-2003 18:41									#13
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Sounds like a fun game. Re your original question (pullling back and taking on the Zulus and stupid Russia, whom you've just turned into vassals) I would have asked whether there was one or more other civs you could make an alliance with against these upstarts. I love doing that, even if it costs me some gold or a tech. It doesn't seem to occur to the AI that you the human could possibly bring someone else in on your side. Of course, they may ally with you and then do absolutely nothing in the way of attacking the foe.

Anyway, you're well past that point I gather. Battle on.

	12-06-2003 20:46									#14
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desters,

It sounds even better in Latin:

Nos moritori te salutamus !


My personal fav. to send to the AI is:

Futue te ipsum et caballum tuum.


D.