10-06-2003 02:31									#1
	They have GOT to allow a "no nuke" option....... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The game is no fun once nukes are introduced into play......

Against the computer-once nukes are achieved, the computer uses them without hesitation....

In multiplayer, once everyone has nukes its a race to use as many as you can before there is one left-and half the time some ******* who is loosing launches that last nuke to end the game.....

	10-06-2003 09:40									#2
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"...some ******* who is loosing launches that last nuke to end the game....."

In chess, that is called salvaging a draw.

	10-06-2003 10:15									#3
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I hate the nukes too. The AI thinks they are Harry Truman. They ruin the late ages.

	10-06-2003 10:54									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

What we need is a greater negative for launching nukes. I mean no trade for 2mins is crap.

We need soemthing bad to happen. The person should have to have uranium to build them(a rare resource). Also they should cost ALOT more.

It seems most units in game are so cheap you can make them to easy and fast.(this could be modded).

Also make it so nuked areas have 4x damage in citys radius. Like added attrition.

	10-06-2003 12:11									#5
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i dunno, i like the nukes...

they could cost more, though. knowledge and oil are good, but add metal, perhaps? to make them more dear...

	10-06-2003 20:38									#6
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Ive make a no nukes mod check it out here:

http://ron.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/...&f=10,1088,0,20

	10-06-2003 21:51									#7
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I agree, something has to be done in MP...
anyways, here is the single player fix:

quote: It's not supported as a game setting, obviously, but you could "mod" your game to do this-- in unitrules.xml find the two nuclear weapons, and in buildingrules.xml find the wonders. Change the "PREQ0" field for each to "disable" and you won't see any nukes or wonders in the game.

	10-06-2003 23:45									#8
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You know I'm absolutely amazed they didn't make a "Manhattan Project" wonder (since it was in the civ games) with the following effects:

Allows all countries to build nuclear weapons (if technologically available).
Makes Nuclear weapons 5% cheaper and 10% faster for host country.
Market nuclear embargo time halved for host country.

If the wonder is destroyed, nukes can still be built but the bonuses are lost

	11-06-2003 05:36									#9
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no, that would require no thinking at all. That massive of a resource drop would almost never be worth it. My suggestion for nukes is that they require population to create, but more than just the default 1 per unit. Make it like 30 or 40 to generate a nuke.

Laz

	11-06-2003 08:59									#10
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Tassadar ya that would but probably too severe, and really no historical reason for it. I think a scholar embargo would be the best way to slow down nukers. SINCE this is somewhat realistic, plus nukes require oil and knowledge to build, if they scholars go on strike, that mean u not only cant trade to regain oil, but your scholars wont replenish your knowledge for awhile. So they two resources u need to build a nuke is cut dry for a good long time before u can even start accumulating resources for another nuke again.

	11-06-2003 09:14									#11
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I agree that there should really be a more sevear consequence for using nukes. But the nuke price is fine. In retrospect, I don't know for sure how much they cost in real life, but what I do know is the United states has tons of them scattered through outs its territory. So we need to be able to get tons of them, to affectivly simulate commanding a world superpower in the game, you have to have access to a lot nuclear weapons if the player wishes so. Whether or not they use them, is a different story all together.

Last edited by Poogas on 11-06-2003 at 22:27

	11-06-2003 18:42									#12
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Scholar embargo- that's REAL nice. Got to make your nukes in advance.

	12-06-2003 00:29									#13
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I like the idea of a scholar embargo, too. What do you say, two minutes, is that enough?

	12-06-2003 00:58									#14
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Added resource to launch a nuke: 1,000 university points. + 15% for each consecutive launch?

This simulates the ongoing intellectual capital one must invest to maintain nuclear system integrity.

?

	12-06-2003 04:44									#15
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Adding a resource to launching a nuke just seems like increasing its base cost to me...and while thats certainly a valid option i'm liking this embargo idea a bit more. While i think losing all your knowledge income at that stage in the game might be a touch too much, what about having knowledge income reduced by 50%? (or some other non-complete %).

Laz

	12-06-2003 04:54									#16
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Again, I don't think it should cost any more to build nukes, but the penalty should come if/when you launch them!!!!! This could build cool situations where both civs (who are enemies) have tons of nukes (kinda like the cold war, or any face off war) but neither wants to be the first to use them due to penaltys that will accure. You should have acces to tons of them, just make it a tougher decision if you want to use them or not!

	12-06-2003 05:49									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Nukes are great as long as your the only one who has them.

	12-06-2003 06:05									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Poogas Again, I don't think it should cost any more to build nukes, but the penalty should come if/when you launch them!!!!! This could build cool situations where both civs (who are enemies) have tons of nukes (kinda like the cold war, or any face off war) but neither wants to be the first to use them due to penaltys that will accure. You should have acces to tons of them, just make it a tougher decision if you want to use them or not!

I like this idea. Creating a Dialema situation. A 'Cold War'.

Also, maybe there could be some kinda radiation leakage (or something ) when you destroy a silo containing a Nuke. Perhaps with a 'chain-reaction' if close to another. Should put some people off building them too near Cities & such.

	12-06-2003 06:36									#19
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I think the problem isn't so much the nukes as it is the Armageddon ending. The nukes ARE costly (hard to get the Missile Shield tech when you keep building nukes), but they are worth it to save a victory. My thought would be to have the Armageddon ending be an option, rather than automatic.

	12-06-2003 12:17									#20
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1. Armaggeddon counter should be user defined (ie user can set it ot 5, 10, 15, 20, infinite, etc)
2. Nuclear missiles should be renamed Tactical Nuclear Missiles/Weapons (since thats what they are) and ICBM's should be named "Nuclear ICBM" (unless they already are, I forget)
3. Nuclear Embargo is crap, and you know why? It's because trade isn't as important as it can be. By the time nukes start entering the theater people usually have mostrous stockpiles of resources unless they're playing something like 8 nations on a 4 player map. To rectify this, we need something better than a "nuclear embargo" to be the penalty.

How about protest rallies? A random number of citizens, between 20-30% of your total citizens, stop working and "go on strike," severely hurting your income. This affects caravans too. This lasts for 2 minutes base time plus 5 seconds for every enemy civilian and enemy non-military building (market, temple, smelter, etc) killed/destroyed in the nuclear blast, to represent the idea of targeting only military units. That kind of a penalty is bad enough to deter most leaders, but not so punitive as to deter nukes completely. It might be worth it to lose some of your income for a while if it meant doing the same to your enemy.

If you keep using nukes then your citizens might even stage a riot and destroy a building or two of yours.

I think that's an OK solution for AI.

I think an even better solution for human players, however, is deterrence.

I think there should be an option to alter nuclear missile strength. Normally it's set at 100%, but it can be set as low as 50% and as high as 400%. That way, players can play the game one of two ways.
1. They can set it at 50% and not worry too much if people start throwing nukes around like water.
2. They can set it really high, like around 400%, and tell other players that since both sides have nukes it'd be unwise to start a nuclear war since it'll decimate everybody in the end and everybody will just be reduced to crap. Since an ICBM already can wipe out an entire city, more or less, at 400% it would destroy half the map of a 4 player map. People would learn to put silos in weird places all over their nation, and the moment nukes are detected they'd launch in retaliation. If anyone had any real logic they'd learn to negotiate their nukes into oblivion instead of use them to burn their enemies cities. I think if enough nukes are fired it might even be fun to see all nations reduced to industrial times, losing all upgrades related to modern and information ages (exceptions include wonders).

- PTM

	12-06-2003 18:25									#21
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Nukes should just be taken out-or allow ONE nuke per player(period).

You'll never negotiate to "work it out"-because unlike the real world we cant live in peace-the winner is the one who kills the other guy.

	12-06-2003 18:33									#22
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Just get rid of Armegeddon! Nukes themselves don't do "that much" damage. It's the game suddenly ending that I think irks people most.

Instead of Armegeddon, along Tassadar5000's idea, just have resource production across the board drop with each nuclear explosion so that, say, after 6 nukes, it now takes twice as long to gather the same amount of pre-nuke resource gathering.

You'd then slowly have people reverting to a more post-nuclear sticks and stones type of warfare in which the only troops you could afford to field in any great numbers are the lower-level ones. This makes sense to me and doesn't simply end the game after NukeX has exploded.

Oh, and have villies start to suffer attrition!!! You know, from radiation sickness. This way you'd constantly have to watch and replace a dying workforce. Throw in a little glowing outline on these villies, and I'd be thrilled.