10-06-2003 03:42									#1
	The Great Western Settlement Thread Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Our just and wise King, Justino Togas, has issued an Royal Edict, calling for the further expansion of Espanola:

quote: Originally posted by Togas Our nation is still behind, and with so much land to fill and with Pamplona now dedicating itself to building "capital worthy" improvements, it comes time for us to ask, one last time, for a major settler boom. I've discussed this matter with E_T and he is strongly urging us to do this. The way I see things, if every major city (Toledo, Pamplona, Zaragoza, Santiago, Barcelona) + Leon builds 1 settler, we will then have all of our remaining land settled. ONE LAST SETTLER and then a mixed focus of military, workers, and marketplaces. Our numbers are growing, and while we'd take a dive when all of these settlers are built, we'll rise up faster in the long term with so many cities growing. Plus, more cities = more support for our military, and every single tile worked gives us trade to help our economy. Therefore I now issue a Royal Edict that will begin the Great Western Settlement. I ask that the Lords volunteer to produce a settler in each of your fiefdoms. Those who can, please do now. Those who need to finish a project may do so later. However, the crown may overrule your curent project in accordance with this Royal Edict if it is deemed that a settler is urgent in your city. Please post your questions or suggestions on this issue. --Togas

This is where we will look at all of our options and look at what we need to do to accomplish this great tasking from our King. All Of Spain is welcome to come and discuss this with us in chat, at any time. This thread will be used for formal plans.

E_T

	10-06-2003 03:56									#2
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The Great Western Settlement demands that FIVE settlers be sent immediately to our unsettled western territory. However, a minimum of SEVEN settlers are required.

2-3 of those settlers shall be needed to fill in other city sites, one to the NE of Pamplona, one to the east of New Madrid, and POTENTIALLY one to the east of Bilbao, depending on how the Arabs build in that area.

--Togas

	10-06-2003 04:06									#3
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I will be investigating Leon and Salamance shortly for their contributions to this movement...

For the meantime, I would like to say that I would like to see the remaining coastal sites get highest priority. I believe there are 4, including the hill to the NE of Bilbao.

	10-06-2003 04:08									#4
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This is what I propose

Vigo - change to a granary and then build a settler. We may change the WF assignments to get the granary built faster, but we do NOT want it's size to increase before it's granary is built.

Santiago - change to a settler, then build a granary

Zaragossa - should continue to build Mil Units, but if it's Govenor thinks that It's appropriate, then it can build a worker or 2, from time to time.

Leon - can be the next Rex/Worker center, but it will likely have to invest in a granary after it's settler is built.

Barcelona - should finish it's Galley and then build a Settler. After wards, it should get a granary built to help with it's size.

Toledo - a Mil Unit, after the Barracks, then a Settler. After that, a mix of mil units and settlers/workers. but mostly mil units.

Madrid will continue to ramp up, as it can be a sheild powerhouse in a relatively short time.

[EDIT] Pamplona - as R_M is working at getting a granary built there before it grows to size 7, one more settler from there might help him with that, too[/edit]

All cities - we want then to have a granary before they reach size 7, as that will add 10 food to the next level to get to.

Production Potential - i.e. build what you can in a relatively short time. If a city has a large Production capability, then it should build things like Markets. Libraries and higher cost mil units. If a city can't produce much, then it should work on things that it can build relatively soon, like Temples, catapults, warriors and spearmen (if not connected to the capitol) and workers. Also, it they have the potienal to be a good producer, but they have slow growth, then granaries are in order.

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 10-06-2003 at 04:46

	10-06-2003 04:32									#5
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I would like to keep Zaragoza building military units instead of settlers to keep its high shield production.

Besides, new cities should also be defended properliy, as well as the existing ones, so I request the King to make an exception for Zaragoza in his edict.

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza

	10-06-2003 04:49									#6
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As for the workers that we currently have, they will mostly be working with getting the extra luxes connected up for trading with GS, but there will be a few excemptions to this.

E_T

	10-06-2003 07:38									#7
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Leon:
Current build settler complete in 290BC. As we are looking at getting many cities involved, a granary in Leon will not help by the time it would be finished. Another settler built right away can be finished in 10 turns (14 from now). By that time, we should be almost complete all the settlers we'll need. So Leon can contribute 2 settlers to the plan.

Salamanca:
If needed, this city can complete a settler in 14 turns. However, it would need undisturbed use of the Pamplona forest from 250BC until completion. Obviously, the side effect of using Salamanca for a settler is that it would seriously delay building it into an effective city.

We need 7 settlers, and by E_T's suggestions, we can get them from: Vigo - 1, Santiago - 1, Leon - 2, Barcelona - 1, Toledo - 1; Pamplona - 1. If for some reason Pamplona, Barcelona, or Santiago should be excluded from the list, Salamanca could step in.

	10-06-2003 07:56									#8
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quote: Originally posted by E_T [EDIT] Pamplona - as R_M is working at getting a granary built there before it grows to size 7, one more settler from there might help him with that, too[/edit] All cities - we want then to have a granary before they reach size 7, as that will add 10 food to the next level to get to.

Actually size 7 will add 20 food bails to what is required for growth, but I am now considering holding off on the granary in Pamplona until size 8. In my current SP game I noticed that game mechanics made granaries at size 7 pointless. They work at size 6 and size 8, but for some reason the change in designation to "city" at size 7 empties the granary out completely and the cycle starts again. I assume it does so at size 12, too.

Admittedly, I am using the AU mod, but I'm gonna play a normal game and see if it just something I never noticed. If so, a granary would be more appropriately timed at just before size 8. I'll post back the results.

	10-06-2003 09:49									#9
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Well, I played an old game I had saved and went about tinkering around with building granaries in certain situations, and it does seem that size 7 wipes the slate clean for granaries that were already built prior to this. As the city fills the 40 bails required to get to size 8, it automatically registers when 20 bails are done that the granary has been replenished.

This would seem to suggest that building a Settler at size 8 is a bad idea. Better to wait until size 9 to drop 2 pop. points because it will not effect the growth or what the granary contains for size 7. However, vascillating from 8 to 6 means having to wait the extra turns while the granary refills when the city returns to size 7.

Knowing this, building a granary in Pamplona just prior to size 7 would be meaningless and more effective at just prior to size 8. No consolation for having it already built long ago, but this would have been overkilll for a city with Pamplona's growth potential at smaller pop. levels.

Anyway, I will adjust my plans accordingly. We can now build the settler that the edict requires and, maybe, the marketplace before going for the granary (depending on how it works out with timing).

Lord Togas, the marketplace is 100 shields and 17 turns at the current pop. level and tile improvements so I will post orders based on building the settler first.

	10-06-2003 19:49									#10
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I don't want to build a settler after the galley completion. Barcelona is growing slowly and remains our only coastal city able to build ships. This city needs to keep its potential to build ships fast. I think we need at least 6 galleys in the near future. One or two to explore and 4 to transport ground units.

We need to remain ready to act with our fleet and not fall in a hurry when more ships were needed.

I ask our King to let Barcelona continue its naval duties, even to let her to build a temple in order to maintain its population happy. This city could possibly build a granary/marketplace/library if the war threats diminish in the future.

	10-06-2003 21:42									#11
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Seven Settlers:

Leon = 2
Santiago = 1
Pamplona = 1
Toledo = 1
Vigo = 1

Either Zaragoza, Barcelona, Madrid, or Salamanca is going to have to pitch in a settler OR Pamplona will have to make 2.

Please post how you would assign the 7 settlers.

--Togas

	10-06-2003 22:19									#12
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Senor Tamale,

Toledo finishes the Barracks in just a matter of days. Then, we shall begin work on Medieval Infantry. Once this is completed, we shall begin work on a settler.

Don Iago Calamari de Toledo

	11-06-2003 01:12									#13
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So we have a few cities that are borderline on building a settler. Here's a crazy thought - how about we produce a worker in one of the cities and send it to join a different one of these cities that will build a settler, to expedite the process. This way, two cities share the load.

A good pairing for this might be Salamanca (worker) and Pamplona (settler).

	11-06-2003 01:47									#14
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quote: Originally posted by dejon A good pairing for this might be Salamanca (worker) and Pamplona (settler).

If Salamanca can get one there in 5 turns...

	11-06-2003 02:24									#15
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quote: Originally posted by dejon So we have a few cities that are borderline on building a settler. Here's a crazy thought - how about we produce a worker in one of the cities and send it to join a different one of these cities that will build a settler, to expedite the process. This way, two cities share the load.

The only problem is that it is a waste of 10 shields (the cost of the worker)

	11-06-2003 08:20									#16
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R_M, when you have a granary and you go to size 7, you don't loose the 10 food that was in the granary, but the granary will have to refill. This was done to close out an exploit that people were using to pump out workers very fast.

You will see that the city should have 10 food already in it's food box (these are the 10 that was originally in the granary part of the foodbox). For some cities, that extra 10 food can mean the difference between a long time to size 8 and a REAL LONG TIME to size 8.

Check it out, you should see them there.

E_T

	11-06-2003 20:30									#17
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Yes, it is rather a waste, unfortunately.

	11-06-2003 21:45									#18
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quote: Originally posted by E_T R_M, when you have a granary and you go to size 7, you don't loose the 10 food that was in the granary, but the granary will have to refill. This was done to close out an exploit that people were using to pump out workers very fast. You will see that the city should have 10 food already in it's food box (these are the 10 that was originally in the granary part of the foodbox). For some cities, that extra 10 food can mean the difference between a long time to size 8 and a REAL LONG TIME to size 8.

I've already run through it several times, and I'm not sure I see what you are getting at. I'm also not sure what you mean by 10 food; at size 7 the surplus minimums go up to 40 food bails for growth, and half of that is 20.

Regardless, in every test I've tried and in every city I've tried it in, size 7 means a complete refill of all 40 food, where at size 6 you only need 10 food and at size 8 you only need 20 (if you already had the granary built prior to all this, of course).

Check it out.

	12-06-2003 10:51									#19
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After looking over Santiago, I determined that it cannot afford to build a settler. If it did, it would drop to size 1. It will not grow in time

Therefore, this is the new settler outline:

Leon = 2
Pamplona = 2
Toledo = 1
Vigo = 1
New Madrid = 1

Please post if you disagree, and if you do, please suggest an alternative.

--Togas

	12-06-2003 21:43									#20
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I agree with the settler plan, as it fits with how we have been playing in this game. However, I wish to know that we are also providing an adiquate defence as well. Please, what is the game plan?

	15-06-2003 04:07									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Leon = 2 Pamplona = 2 Toledo = 1 Vigo = 1 New Madrid = 1

This plan has been changed once again.

After juggling WFs around due to Zaragoza building a new worker, the Game Forest between Zaragoza and Santiago became available and I have given the use of that forest to Santiago for 4 turns.

By doing so, it will grow quickly and produce a Settler quickly, both in 4 turns. We will ask no more from Santiago in the way of Settlers. E_T has plans to send workers to dig out the swamps. Santiago will, henseforth, develop it's commercial value.

Vigo has been changed to a Granary and will next build a Settler.

The new plan is:

Leon = 2
Pamplona = 1 (We will have our capital GROW and develop great commerce and production!)
Toledo = 1
Vigo = 1
Santiago = 1
New Madrid = 1

--Togas

	15-06-2003 04:57									#22
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing I agree with the settler plan, as it fits with how we have been playing in this game. However, I wish to know that we are also providing an adiquate defence as well. Please, what is the game plan?

Game Plan, we don't need no stinkin' game plan...

Toledo and Zaragossa will still be making Mil Units, but they will also be doing this other stuff.

Madrid is also working on getting back to full productive capability with a barracks next, then a Granary (helped by a timely chop...). With all of the hills mined and the grassland irrigated, it will be a major sheild powerhouse.

E_T

	24-06-2003 23:20									#23
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The Great Western Settlement has begun with two settlers coming forth, one from Leon and one from Pamplona.

The settlement will proceed like this:



1) Leon Settler will found Merida, a city which I shall give to Lord WhiteBandit to govern.

2) Pamplona Settler will found Murcia, a city which shall be given to the first born child of GodKing, in hopes that his family can redeem itself and contribute to the greatness of Spain.

3) Santiago Settler will found Cordoba, a city which shall be given to the De la Civ (civman2000) family to govern.

4) Leon's 2nd Settler will found Cadiz, a city which shall be given to the Torquemada (Davout) family.

5) Vigo's Settler will found Lisboa, a city which shall be governed by the LzPrst family to rule in conjunction with Vigo.

6) Toledo's Settler will found Albacete, a city which shall be given to the Church (Pope Aidun) to allow their just influence in the Western Lands.

7) New Madrid's Settler will found San Sebastian, a city which shall be governed by the Crown.


Leon's 3rd settler (at some future point) will found a city north of Pamplona, between Toledo and Zaragoza, which will most likely be the final city we build. This city is not a part of the Great Western Settlement, and is not urgent.

--Togas

Last edited by Togas on 24-06-2003 at 23:31

	25-06-2003 01:57									#24
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My Lord,

As the representative of the Spanish military I feel compelled to voice my disagreement with these plans.

By all accounts, Lego was the first to discover the wonders of Map Making, and must have several ships by now. The Santa Maria has sent reports of a vast Gathering Storm navy. And the citizens of both Santiago and Vigo have seen Neu Demogyptica galleys travelling our eastern coast.

What does all this mean? It means Spanish shores are at risk of being settled, or worse - invaded - by rival nations!

Why rush another city by Ivory? The lovely town of Sevilla is desperate to share theirs with Spain, but our engineers have not completed a road to Sevilla yet.

If I may be so bold, I suggest an alternative order of settlement...

Murcia
Lisboa
Cadiz
San Sebastian
Merida
Cordoba
Albacete

...though of course, the decision is yours to make.

There also must be some consideration given to escort units. Currently our settler production is outpacing the production of new escorts, and I would loathe drawing from our current defenses in order to escort settlers (especially to interior town sites).

Lastly, let me remind you that I still desire a minimum of one more barracks city. We only have 2 presently, 3 when another is completed in New Madrid. To have only 1/4th of our cities capable of building veteran units is insufficient, especially considering that no city governor without a barracks has ever volunteered to produce units. With only 3 cities producing units, it will be millenia before Spain has enough forces to ensure it's survival in this age.

Respectfully,
Señor Jaguar Dejon
Commander of the Armies of Spain

	25-06-2003 02:34									#25
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Señor Jaguar Dejon

The coastal cities you are in favor of will not produce much, they are too far away from our Capitol. I would rather settle productive cities which can produce their own units for defense rather than let unproductive cities water down our current defensive forces.

	28-06-2003 10:24									#26
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Due to issues raised by our General, I have decided to alter the order that the new cities will be founded:

1) Merida
2) Murcia
3) Cadiz
4) Cordoba
5) Lisboa
6) San Sebastian
7) Albacete

--Togas

	01-07-2003 18:48									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Due to issues raised by our General, I have decided to alter the order that the new cities will be founded: 1) Merida 2) Murcia 3) Cadiz 4) Cordoba 5) Lisboa 6) San Sebastian 7) Albacete --Togas

I greatly appreciate your re-consideration, my King. This order looks very wise.

Merida has been founded, and settlers are on the way to the sites of Murica and Cadiz. The next two settlers will be complete in 5 and 9 turns, for Cordoba and Lisboa. I especially like the fact that Vigo is producing Lisboa's settler - this will create a strong bond between these two western coast cities.

I agree that Albacete should come last, as it is to be squeezed into terrain that will already be ours. A long time ago, another city site was proposed - NE of Bilbao. Have we abandoned that idea? If not, I would suggest that Albacete should also come after that city.

	02-07-2003 16:49									#28
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I would suggest that Murcia be settled on tile south of its planned location. A lot less crowded, especially if we get a FP down in that area.

Cordoba looks like the best candidate for our Forbiden Palace. We want it to have room to grow.

	02-07-2003 17:17									#29
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I think that it is better to use our FP for our colonies that we will found or conquer in the future, that is coming nearer and nearer.

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza

	03-07-2003 14:21									#30
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Aidun, our land, that we have lain claim to, is much to large to do without an FP. The Southern cities will be almost useless due to corruption without one. If we get to the point of wanting to build a FP overseas...well, just consider that we would have the game in the bag by then and wouldn't need it anyways.