10-06-2003 06:08									#1
	Are revolutions possible in the modern world? Support Apolyton

I've seen some references by some posters about countries such as Iraq and Vietnam. Some have claimed if things were actually bad in those countries the populace would revolt.

But is that possible? I don't think it is. I've been trying to come up with some modern revolutions and have been having trouble coming up with examples. Cuba for one. But that was 40 years ago. African nations still have revolutions and coups, but often the warlords have just as much firepower as the goverment.

In most countries in the world, the militias and warlords do not have nearly the amount of firepower than the goverment. Even in Afghanistan, they couldn't get the job done until the U.S. got involved with massive airpower. And yet there is still not complete control of the country.

Are revolutions possible in nations other than some African ones? The U.S. is another example. Second ammendment or not, revolution is not possible in the U.S.

	10-06-2003 06:32									#2
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No. this is why i don't buy into the line of bullshit that every government represents its people either by direct or implied consent. implied consent my arse! The people just can't get a revolt going.

	10-06-2003 06:39									#3
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the whole eastern block was revolted. I witnessed the fall of the Berlin wall 14 years ago. one thing I learned from this event: it is hard to believe in revolutions before they really happen.
concerning Cuba, I guess the people there are just waiting for Castro´s death which is expected in near future. why going the risk of losing life when the unavoidable isn´t that far anymore?

	10-06-2003 06:53									#4
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In Yugoslavia, a couple of years ago, Milosevic was brought down by a government crisis which was the result of popular demonstrations. The demonstrators sacked the presidential palace.

In Argentina last year, 3 consecutive goverments were forced to resign by the people, after widespread rioting. Meanwhile, typical symptoms of dual power started to appear, such as factories taken over and run by the workers and local popular assemblies demanding a new constitution.

Of course the two cases differ in the outcome: in Yugoslavia the regime has changed, while the Argentines now have to put up with practically the same kind of government. This is due to the international factor: in Yugoslavia the West was for the regime change, while in Argentina, merely the prospect of another Chavez or Lula or Castro, was horrifying for them.

Other modern revolutions: Iran 1979, Nicaragua 1979, Romania 1989

	10-06-2003 06:54									#5
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	10-06-2003 07:48									#6
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Revolutions only happen when the government loses legitimacy. That can happen for any number of reasons, and can only rarely be manufactured. The main thing a revolutionary group has to do is to be ready to take advantage of a situation like that, because if nothing posits itself as an alternate pole of legitmacy, the government will quickly regain control.

Simply put, revolutions don't win, governments lose.

	10-06-2003 08:41									#7
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in America, we have legal revolutions every time a new party takes office... technically speaking...

the only way I see a violent revolution occuring is if some authoritarian element disrupts the democratic process... or get's re-elected in 2004...

	10-06-2003 10:10									#8
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Only the rightist revolts work nowdays, the leftist ones are crushed by the US (Does Nicaragua ring a bell).

	10-06-2003 10:11									#9
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well that depends on who is president of the U.S.

They should have tried again under Clinton, or did it under Jimmy Carter.

G. Bush is pretty unpredictable, but I think even now a communist revolution would be allowed to take place in Nicaragua.

	10-06-2003 10:12									#10
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odin: bah... lefty, righty, most are usually authoritarian regimes.... but I agree that the US does knock out the Stalinist style regimes while supporting the Pinochet's of the world.

	10-06-2003 10:14									#11
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quote: G. Bush is pretty unpredictable

nah... given any situation, he'll always do what's best for Halliburton

	10-06-2003 10:33									#12
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Has anyone heard how the attempted revolution by the communists in Nepal is going? I haven't been keeping up with the news from there.

	10-06-2003 10:38									#13
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who gives a sh1t about nepal?

	10-06-2003 10:41									#14
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sherpas?

	10-06-2003 10:45									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Has anyone heard how the attempted revolution by the communists in Nepal is going?

The last time I checked the Maoists were still there commiting war crimes.

	10-06-2003 10:51									#16
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Even if there was an authentic revolution (anywhere), high chances are it would probably be "renamed" by the media, or other interested parties.

"Revolution" just sounds so......revolutionary.

	10-06-2003 11:02									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The last time I checked the Maoists were still there commiting war crimes.

and they're too tough to be "liberated"...

	10-06-2003 11:04									#18
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Sava: You seem to be under the impression that I care one way or the other.

	10-06-2003 11:04									#19
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nah, I don't care what you think

	10-06-2003 11:10									#20
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Question: when we pull out of Iraq and our "democratic" Iraqi government is then toppled by a Shia revolt that takes control of the country and establishes a theocracy, would you consider that a revolution?

	10-06-2003 11:12									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Question: when we pull out of Iraq and our "democratic" Iraqi government is then toppled by a Shia revolt that takes control of the country and establishes a theocracy, would you consider that a revolution?

only when another plane crashes into a building

	10-06-2003 11:19									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Question: when we pull out of Iraq and our "democratic" Iraqi government is then toppled by a Shia revolt that takes control of the country and establishes a theocracy, would you consider that a revolution?

No, that is a "foreign sponsored coup against a peaceful, democratic, freedom-loving American ally, launched as a pretext for invasion by a radical, oppressive totalitarian supporter of international terrorism^TM."

And by George, we'd better pre-empt that while we have a chance.

	10-06-2003 11:21									#23
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you can't force democracy on a people mtg

	10-06-2003 11:29									#24
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Sure you can.

You just force whatever system you want, throw some elections into where the people have the choice of voting for two candidates you approve, then you tell the world it's democratic and move on.

Nobody gives a **** for reality, just appearances. Read your Macchiavelli.

	10-06-2003 11:33									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat No, that is a "foreign sponsored coup against a peaceful, democratic, freedom-loving American ally, launched as a pretext for invasion by a radical, oppressive totalitarian supporter of international terrorismTM." And by George, we'd better pre-empt that while we have a chance.

	10-06-2003 11:40									#26
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Is revolution possible? I'd say yes, but in most cases it isn't desirable.

Evolution seems a much better way to improve things.

Mind you, I dislike saying never. It's impossible to predict which way any country is going, let alone all of them.

	10-06-2003 13:14									#27
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The revolution can be lead by the Army itself, in which case it'll be easy as hell since they have all the power.

	10-06-2003 17:18									#28
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I don't think revolution is possible anymore. Now it's just labeled terrorism.

	10-06-2003 17:30									#29
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If you mean, changing your government, then it is possible, we had a revolution 2 years ago provoked by popular revolts here, if you mean, changing the political system of your country, then, that is something completey different.

	10-06-2003 18:20									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Sava you can't force democracy on a people mtg

What is the Matrix?