10-06-2003 08:59									#1
	Are gladiator contests ethical? Get a bigger avatar today!

Inspired by the thread, "Is pornography ethical," I would like to propose the question on whether gladiator contest are ethical under circumstances where all participants are consenting adults. By this I mean that the gladiators themselves are consenting adults and the viewers of them contests are consenting adults.

Is the issue of consent the only issue involved in the determination of whether gladiator contests are ethical or not?

	10-06-2003 09:08									#2
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If all parties are truly "consenting," then it's no problem. Rome always found itself a bit short of auctorati, but even then, most of them were debtors to loansharks who used their signing bonuses as an auctoratus to pay off family debts.

	10-06-2003 09:12									#3
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If all parties are truly "consenting," then it's no problem.

I'm very interested in how you reconcile this belief with your Catholicism.

	10-06-2003 09:13									#4
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I'd watch gladiator contests.

	10-06-2003 09:16									#5
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MTG, then let the games begin!

"We who are about to die salute you!"

However, Michael, I am sure you are wrong. Why did Honorius ban gladiator contests in 407?

	10-06-2003 09:19									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I'm very interested in how you reconcile this belief with your Catholicism.

I don't believe I have the right to use force to impose my ethical standards on others. Catholics and a lot of other people wouldn't participate or watch, obviously. Since Ned posed it as a general question of ethics, I didn't decide to answer it for everyone on the planet in a Christian framework.

	10-06-2003 09:21									#7
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The question was are gladiator contests ethical, not whether they should be legal or not.

	10-06-2003 09:23									#8
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of course!

they could be fun to watch

	10-06-2003 09:25									#9
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those are to the death aren't they?

how can that be ethical in modern society?

	10-06-2003 09:28									#10
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Given the presentation:

Ethical? Yes.

Moral? No.

	10-06-2003 09:34									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MTG, then let the games begin! "We who are about to die salute you!"

Actually, gladiators never said that. The only time it was recorded as being said was a mock naval battle involving condemned prisoners. Although both gladiators and convicts were deemed outside of Roman civil law and had no "rights," gladiators were actually several rungs above convicts in Rome's rather odd social hierarchy, so what a bunch of convicts said prior to their first and last swimming lesson can't be considered applicable to what gladiators would have said in totally different sorts of entertainments, especially because so much else about gladiatorial contests is very well documented.

quote: However, Michael, I am sure you are wrong. Why did Honorius ban gladiator contests in 407?

If a Roman emperor or other official ever did anything that appeared to be for "ethical" reasons, then it was surely coincidence.

Gladiatorial games were extremely expensive to host, and due to their popularity with the cretinous, bloodthirsty masses that were the average free Roman citizen (thus voter), they became the primary medium of running for civil office in Roman and provicial government. You got a lot of wealthy men bankrupted, lowlife barbarian lanistae scum able to buy Roman citizenship and have enough wealth left over to become members of the equites, and general social instability that outweighed the benefits to keeping the masses distracted from how the empire was going to hell in a bucket.

That probably had a lot more (in reality) to do with banning the games than any notion of ethics and morality.

	10-06-2003 09:41									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. President I'd watch gladiator contests.

Really?

I must say I have a very hard time watching bullfights, cockfights or dogfights when they appear in movies. Only animals are involved here, but it really disturbs me.

	10-06-2003 09:46									#13
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To each his own.

I also watched the Ultimate Fighting Contest, when it was still on Fox 8.

	10-06-2003 09:49									#14
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I see nothing wrong if all participants are participating completely willingly.

With that said, I'd expect to see this on FOX within a year.

	10-06-2003 09:51									#15
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If it's consenting... then there is nothing wrong with it.

	10-06-2003 09:51									#16
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They'd probably have to find some legal loophole where they can show people being disembowelled.

	10-06-2003 09:57									#17
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I don't think such programming should be on normal broadcast TV, however. I think broadcast TV (meaning anything you can pick up without cable or a satelite service) should be publically owned, and should have strict standards.

	10-06-2003 10:23									#18
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Definitely unethical.

Even with volunteers, the very concept cheapens the value of human life. Why would anybody set up an event where someone dies in order to produce a few moments of transitory thrills.

	10-06-2003 10:26									#19
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who cares? one day the sun will go red giant and consume the earth... why not have fun in the meantime? if two people want to fight each other to the death, fine... let them... three words: "thinning the herd"... if people want to watch... let them

human life is cheap zkribb, haven't you studied history?

	10-06-2003 10:28									#20
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Sure.. fire away. I've alwyas wanted to see classic duels with flamethrowers, hand granades and Uzis.

	10-06-2003 10:32									#21
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MtG, I don't think expense had anything to do with ending the gladiator contests. The "animal" hunts continued to be displayed in the Coliseum at great expense well into the next century and ended only at the onset of the Gothic Wars.

What happened in 407 is that one Telemachus, a traveler from the Eastern Empire, attended the Coliseum one day. When he saw what was happening, he went to the lower barrier and began to call for the gladiators to stop. "In the name of God, I call on you to stop!" (After all, they were butchering each other.) When they ignored him, Telemachus jumped into the arena and ran about to each gladiator pair urging them to stop. He was suddenly struck himself by an unintentional blow and fell dead in the arena. Thereupon silence fell over the Coliseum. The gladiator contests stopped and the assembled crowd left in solemn silence.

The next day, Emperor Honorius banned gladiator contests throughout the Western Empire.

	10-06-2003 10:35									#22
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yeah, and after stopping the gladitorial games, the Christians ushered in a peaceful era in the history of humankind.

	10-06-2003 10:41									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Sava human life is cheap zkribb, haven't you studied history?

I have. It's the study of humanity's struggle from being uncivilized to being civilized. --And you guys are now heading in the wrong direction!

	10-06-2003 10:47									#24
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Zkribbler, nah man.. you can't fight it. It's the human nature.. deep inside we're like animals. We like killing. If we really hated it with all our guts, there would be no killings. But we like it.

	10-06-2003 10:48									#25
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Sava, the Roman Empire was a relatively modern state at the time of its collapse. It was replaced by a rather barbarous German-dominated culture that eventually was replaced during the Enlightement and by the American and French revolutions. The barbarity of "German" culture had nothing to do with the Church.

In another thread here recently, I found it very interesting that the new European constitution calls for "reunification" of Europe and makes specific mention of Rome and Greece. The "reunification" that Europe longs for is the reunification of the Roman Empire, not the Empire of Karl de Grosse or of Napoleon.

So much for the contributions of German culture to civilization.

	10-06-2003 10:50									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler I have. It's the study of humanity's struggle from being uncivilized to being civilized. --And you guys are now heading in the wrong direction!

what's civilized? If you were to look at a graph of the death count of humanity, it would rise higher, the closer you get to present. just because you live in a part of the world that isn't torn by war doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't...

civilization and technology has only brought with it more efficient means of killing...

life is cheap, zkrib, that's the way the ball bounces. you might think that ancient roman times, when they had gladiators and stuff, is less civilized then today, but there weren't wars that killed 20 million people back then...

in fact, I would argue that human culture was more peaceful to itself in ancient times and older... smaller societies, cultures, and communities have more equality, peace, and much less violence

death is the only constant in life, and there was less of it so long ago

	10-06-2003 10:51									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Sava, the Roman Empire was a relatively modern state at the time of its collapse. It was replaced by a rather barbarous German-dominated culture that eventually was replaced during the Enlightement and by the American and French revolutions. The barbarity of "German" culture had nothing to do with the Church. In another thread here recently, I found it very interesting that the new European constitution calls for "reunification" of Europe and makes specific mention of Rome and Greece. The "reunification" that Europe longs for is the reunification of the Roman Empire, not the Empire of Karl de Grosse or of Napoleon. So much for the contributions of German culture to civilization.

and your german bashing troll has what to do with what I said?

	10-06-2003 10:51									#28
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Yes, damn it

Let the condemned murderers and such kill each other, and those so inclined to watch, shall watch!

	10-06-2003 10:52									#29
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god, i wish i oculd have 2 avatars....

	10-06-2003 11:01									#30
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god? sh1t kramerman, just ask MarkG