10-06-2003 10:26									#1
	Should SUPPLY WAGONS be modified? Inflate your Upload Space

After palying some quick games I started to think about those supply wagons.
It's just suiside to attack whitout them, but with them no problem (Even Russia can be invaded with supply wagons).

Well this just isn't the fact historically at least, just look at Napeleons crusade into Russia (In gunpowder age).^*


So I started to think what could be done?
1. A supply wagon supplies X units in it's range, were X increases with research.
2. Make the supply wagon less effective in early eages, meaning that it only reduces attrition X%, were X < 100%.

Peersonally I started to prefer my second opinion.
IIRC you can build supply wagons i Classical (II) age.
So my proposoal could be that:
II Classical 75%
III Medival 85%
IV Gunpowder 90%
V Enlightment 95%
VI - VIII 100%

This way one can still attack, but do suffer some attrition.


IIRC: The Supply wagon was in development on RoN a problem - one minute it was in another it wasn't. (Do I remember correctly?) So maybe there still is a small need of adjustment?


Comments, ideas???

* And how is the game balanced? Just read MS site about supply wagons: http://www.microsoft.com/games/rise...ywagons.asp#top

quote: French Supply vehicles also heal French troops. If you must invade Russia on the cheap, be France.

	10-06-2003 13:52									#2
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Why not simply let the Supply Wagon counter a certain % of the attrition caused? Say that a Supply Wagon would reduce the Attrition effects by 100%. An enemy that has a total Attrition effect of 150% would thus inflict 50% Attrition damage upon your troops even when you're using a Supply Wagon, unless you have in addition researched some Smelter techs, gain special national bonuses or something along those lines. That should give Russia's Attrition bonuses a little more bite.

	10-06-2003 14:30									#3
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Calanor: Yeah, that sounds even better...
Though I do hope that in Last age(s) VIII (&VII) the supply wagons could counter all the attrition.

But your version is better...

(Oh: And I did forget Germas in Russia in WWII)

	10-06-2003 14:57									#4
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There already is a certain element of Supply Wagon's improving with tech. There are several techs that increase the range of a Supply Wagon, so they do get better with tech research.

I think that if Supply Wagons weren't effective in Russian territory, it would make the Russians too powerful (so some additional game balancing would be required).

	10-06-2003 16:47									#5
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GodSpawn: My idea isn't to make the supply wagons totally ineffective in early game - I only want to reduce their effectivnes.

So that for ex. when one attacks an enemy territory that has a 150% attration level and oneself has a 100% supply effect => your troops would suffer a 50% atttration level. (Instead of 0% as now is if supply wagons joining.)

The supply wagon % could rise with the overall effectivness of supply wagons as currently is.

	10-06-2003 18:59									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

russian attrition is powerful enough at it is with the supply wagons doing what they do now.

	10-06-2003 20:47									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You can always destroy the supply wagons.

Realistic enough approach. No modification needed.

	10-06-2003 20:47									#8
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Each Supply Wagon counters 50% of remaining attrition.
E.g., Attrition is at Level (X). 1 SW lowers to 50% of X; 2nd SW lowers to 25%; 3rd to 12.5% ...

As an alternative, replace 50% with 33%.

... Better yet, in Russia the SW benefit is halved.

	10-06-2003 22:44									#9
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Yeah, I tend to spam my supply wagons (I bring 3 or 4 along) just so I don't lose the benefit if one gets destroyed. I like the idea, though, of the effects coming only in relation to the other guy's attrition tech level. Of course, I'd like a way to counter that ... which perhaps brings us back to Square One.

	10-06-2003 23:06									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It might be interesting if the supply wagon suffers attrition damage itself (say 25-50%) but protects the units around it.

	10-06-2003 23:12									#11
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just kill the SW's. In all of the games that I played when I attacked my friend, he sent everything he had at the supply wagons. They go down in two hits basically. After that, he just watched me fade away.

	11-06-2003 12:26									#12
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There's no *problem* with the supply wagons in the first place.

By the way, didn't napolean fail on his conquest of russia? I seem to remember a little fact that no western army has invaded russia and survived the winter.

	11-06-2003 18:46									#13
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Yeah, where's the problem with supply wagons? If you want to let your attrition set in, take some light cavalry and flank his wagons.

	11-06-2003 20:09									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Bridger There's no *problem* with the supply wagons in the first place. By the way, didn't napolean fail on his conquest of russia? I seem to remember a little fact that no western army has invaded russia and survived the winter.

Napoleon took Moscow, but he couldn't hold it. It's a common misconception that the Russian winter alone would defeat invaders, it was more a weapon that the Russians used. Both Napoleon and Hitler made it through the winter (after the winter of 41-42 the Germans were still winning the war), it's that the Russians let their enemies penetrate too deep into their territory, and the invaders became proud of their success and pushed too far without securing strong supply lines. Over the winter the Russians destroyed whatever remained of the invaders' supplies, and then afterwards while the enemy was starving, they were unable to fend off the Russian counterattacks.

Sorry for that, I'm just a big fan/student of Russian history.

I like the way that Supply Wagons work now. If you have strong supply lines (represented by having a lot of Wagons), then you don't suffer from the attrition problems. But make sure to protect your Wagons, because they are easy to kill. Sometimes I see opponents enter my nation with only 1 Wagon; just target it fast and they will not likely win the battle. Attrition is meant to punish those who don't properly organize themselves, and who try to push too far too fast. Having a lot of Supply Wagons represents that your army has taken measures to make sure it is receiving supplies, and thus realistically would not suffer from a lack of food or ammunition. Attrition is not meant to destroy armies completely, but simply to make them weaker to fight the defending army.

	11-06-2003 22:31									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar Saladus Napoleon took Moscow, but he couldn't hold it. It's a common misconception that the Russian winter alone would defeat invaders, it was more a weapon that the Russians used. Both Napoleon and Hitler made it through the winter (after the winter of 41-42 the Germans were still winning the war), it's that the Russians let their enemies penetrate too deep into their territory, and the invaders became proud of their success and pushed too far without securing strong supply lines. Over the winter the Russians destroyed whatever remained of the invaders' supplies, and then afterwards while the enemy was starving, they were unable to fend off the Russian counterattacks. Sorry for that, I'm just a big fan/student of Russian history. I like the way that Supply Wagons work now. If you have strong supply lines (represented by having a lot of Wagons), then you don't suffer from the attrition problems. But make sure to protect your Wagons, because they are easy to kill. Sometimes I see opponents enter my nation with only 1 Wagon; just target it fast and they will not likely win the battle. Attrition is meant to punish those who don't properly organize themselves, and who try to push too far too fast. Having a lot of Supply Wagons represents that your army has taken measures to make sure it is receiving supplies, and thus realistically would not suffer from a lack of food or ammunition. Attrition is not meant to destroy armies completely, but simply to make them weaker to fight the defending army.

I agree with basicly everything you just said, Supply wagons are fine the way they are, enough said.

BWT, I agree with the Russian history part aswell It is extremely interesting, a lot happened to their nation through out history, Russian tsars and all.

	11-06-2003 22:32									#16
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Well obviously Caeser, i didn't think that the winter alone did it. It was a combination of a harsh winter for which the troops were unprepared (no winter supplies) and very long supply lines that were easily cut.

Oh, and those 5 gazillion soldiers the russian army had :P

	12-06-2003 02:48									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

One thing you "could" do, if you want to simulate making supply tougher is to simply increase the cost of supply wagons. If you make them expensive enough, people may not come into your territory with 5 of them. They may decide to settle for 2 of them.... and 2 are easier to destroy than 5.

It is an over simplified answer to the "problem", but it would be easy.

Peace.

	12-06-2003 06:36									#18
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Sorry if I jumped too fast Bridger, I just hear "Napoleon and Hitler were defeated soley by the winter" that I am a bit used to rushing to the Russians' defense.

That's an interesting idea, making the Supply Wagons more expensive. I am not sure how fast they die, but perhaps making them weaker as well or as an alternative?

btw that's another representation of Russia's attrition strength: their Light Cavalry does extra damage to Supply Wagons, don't they? They're experts at cutting off the supply of invading armies.

	12-06-2003 07:49									#19
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man, if the supply wagons get more expensive, they need to have better health...

what i see as an "fix" to the "problem" that was brought up is that suppy wagons actually need supply lines... then, if flanked from behind and cut off, the supply wagon would have less effect

	12-06-2003 08:53									#20
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Well personally, I think that one of the charms of this game is how simple it is, and the high degree of representationalism (is that even a real word?)

The existance of Supply Wagons represents that your army has established lines back to your homeland. The game doesn't need to show supplies moving back and forth, and it doesn't need to have any travel paths beause all of that is represented by the wagons themselves. If you want to "cut off" your enemy's supply, you have to physically take out the wagons; destroying them could represent any number of things, from intercepting the convoys to destroying the railroad tracks to sabotaging the lines of communication. The more I think about it, the more balanced it actually seems the way that it is.

	12-06-2003 16:04									#21
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I don't know if I'd call the fact that one, single Supply Wagon neutralizes all attrition "balanced", "realistic" or whatever. I agree, however, that it's not a bad idea to simplify things, yet I still feel that it should require some extra effort to offset a particularly high attrition effect. If I march into Russia, I should be required to pay extra attention to my supply routes (in RoN: the wagons), compared to if I'd invade many other nations.
So, how about elaborating my previous suggestion a bit by making the effect of the wagons cumulative? For instance, if one wagon would reduce the attrition effects by 25% or something along those lines, two would chop off 50%, three 75% and so forth. Thus, the argument previously put forth by Caesar Saladus..

quote: If you have strong supply lines (represented by having a lot of Wagons), then you don't suffer from the attrition problems

..would still be valid. As your wagons get destroyed, you'd suffer from increased attrition, representing the fact that your supply lines have been weakened.

Cheers!
Calanor

	12-06-2003 17:09									#22
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Too realistic a game is no fun.

Supply wagon is good enough as it is. If anything is wrong, it means I need to improve my playing (strategy, use of hotkey, statistics etc).

	12-06-2003 17:14									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Calanor: If you use cumulative wagon system, I would still like that wagons effect increases as game advances. Also one would need a simple way to find out the current attration level of a given nation. (Mouse over territory or something.)

(Since the nations attration level increases with time, it has to also be countered with somethig.)

The single wagon attration hold should also increase faster than the general territory attration increase - so that in "normal casres" in endgame one could whitstand the attration with fewer supply wagons than in early game.

	12-06-2003 18:35									#24
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In Russia, you do have to pay extra attention to your supply routes because the Russian cavalry are particularily effective at killing Supply Wagons.

Having only 1 Supply Wagon does represent having thin supply lines. However they don't need to make it actually reduce attrition less, because it is already balanced. If the enemy invades your territory and has only 1 Wagon, that will take you about 2 seconds to destroy, and completely cut off their supply. Then the invading army will suffer the full force of your attrition.

There doesn't need to be a built-in penalty for having weak supply lines; you have to do the actual work yourself to make your opponent pay for it, by destroying his wagons. During Napoleon's invasion and WWII, the French and Germans would not have suffered the winter if the Russians had not conducted raids, destroyed railroad tracks, etc.

	14-06-2003 00:16									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

Don't the attackers in this game take enough heat? I mean what with attrition, partisans, and flanking the only saving grace they actually get is that siege outranges towers. Let'm be already.