10-06-2003 16:18									#1
	Hopeless noob question about SAP Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

As an occasional TBS gamer (I say "occasional", my wife may differ...), I have always liked the idea of CTP2, but have been a bit disappointed by the fact that no-one attacks me. Ever.
So I thought I'd try the SAP, and I gave it a couple of shots a year or so ago, but became disillusioned.
"Why?" you gasp in horror.
I'm a dedicated, boring builder. My ideal game has me creating a small empire, fighting off attacks, wiping out maybe one neighbour in the midgame and then turtling and storing up bitterness against all the AI nations. Eventually I outresearch/produce their sorry butts, and rampage happily over everyone who ever gave me lip. Mwah-hah-hah. [Please ignore the obvious psychological aspects here...]
Anyway, to drag myself back to the point - WHAT'S UP WITH THE RESEARCH (capitals to help people trying to track down the question rather than shoutiness)?
Both times I've played (once on standard and once on huge maps) I have been unable to complete the tech tree, despite having the biggest empire size and dedicating everything to science.
Has this been fixed?
If not, can I fix it (as a man who cannot even spell .slic, so go easy on me)?
Because I really enjoyed everything else about SAP, and it was disappointing to end with a whimper on both occasions.
Thanks in advance...

	10-06-2003 16:38									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You can easily hack the game files for wonders to give your self a science advantage over the ai and because there wonders no one can stop you.

Plus did you change governments have trade routs etc. as the wrong government could stop you advancing and with no trade routs it could be difficult.

	10-06-2003 16:43									#3
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Hi Mercurio

If you're sure you need to alter the game not the gameplay you can cheapen advances by altering APOL_advances.txt in the {root}/ctp2_data/default/gamedata folder. Each advance has an AdvanceCost flag. If you reduce this figure by a certain percentage for each advance, you should be able to scale the tech tree down by a certain amount. Maybe 75-80% depending on how close to completing it you are usually at 2300.

Remember to keep a backup copy of the original APOL_advances.txt in case you want to revert back to it at any stage, and remember you cannot load any saved games using the altered rules, so complete your game before making the changes, and start a new game afterwards.

Hope this helps.
IW

	10-06-2003 17:09									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

Thanks very much, both of you.
Of course the gameplay is partially responsible, but with a similar size empire and similar gameplay at higher difficulty settings in the unmodded CTP2 I used to complete the tech tree no problemo. Switch to SAP, the game is much improved, but suddenly it was taking 14+ turns for every advance in my huge mega science empire.
Certainly with all the tips I've been gathering I can possible see myself boosting science by 20-30%, but I get the feeling that SAP is more set up for exciting ancient/middle age conflicts rather than isolationist space age wannabees like myself.
And probably a good thing too.

	10-06-2003 18:02									#5
	Support Apolyton

Hi Mercurio,

I am myself an "empire builder" who prefers the science victory over the military game. It is now almost impossible to reach the Science Victory within the 2200 AD time limit of the Apolyton Pack (it is 2300 AD in the original game and that can be easily changed in the SAP2).

I have extended the time limit of my SAP2 to 2300 AD and modified the costs of the various advances (there are still higher).

To change the end date of the SAP2 game, edit the APOL_const.txt located in your C:\Program Files\Activision\Call To Power 2\ctp2_data\default\gamedata.

Find the following line:
END_OF_GAME_YEAR 2200 # WW from 2300

...and change it to:

END_OF_GAME_YEAR 2300 # WW from 2300

You can try my Advance Cost settings if you want (though the Science Victory should be reachable within the 2200 AD time limit):

Attachment: apol_advance.txt
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	10-06-2003 22:52									#6
	Remove this text

Tamerlin what are your new advance costs multplyers? I only reduced the ones in GoodMod for Apolyton Pack but not enough I think.

-Martin

	11-06-2003 08:49									#7
	Remove this text

Here are the multipliers I have used:

Original SAP2 Multiplier -> New Multiplier

x2 -> x 1.5
x3 -> x 2
x4 -> x 2.5
x5 -> x 3
x6 -> x 3.5

	11-06-2003 19:15									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yeah Tamerlin your multipliers look more friendly than mine, I should use them.

-Martin

	11-06-2003 19:40									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The idea was to make these multipliers progressive while reducing the steep increase towards the end of the game when the number of years needed before a discovery suddenly climbed from 5 or 6 years to 20 or 25 turns.

My main goals were to ease the flow of the game and to allow for a Science Victory. With these settings you need around 10 to 13 turns before a discovery when you are close to the end of the game.

	12-06-2003 06:29									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The big reason I upped the cost so much, was because I hated on the high difficulty levels still having nukes and robots in the 18th century. Seemed silly to me. I myself am a "take one civ per era" person, and I found it a stretch to complete the tech tree on the normal settings, being 50-50 chance. Which I believe great. However if you want to change it, go for it.

	12-06-2003 07:08									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

I understand your point of view Dale and it makes sense. It is very difficult to respect history as soon as you consider a game which is spanning over such a long period of time. I am very interested in history (especially ancient times and history of the 19th and 20th centuries) but, as far as 4X games are concerned, I am more interested in the playability of a game rather than in its capacity to accurately simulate history. I would however be deterred by a game that would exhibit crass mistakes.

To my taste, the end of a SAP2 CtP2 game lacks some pace and lowering the science multiplier is a way to speed the flow of the later part of the game which is IMO less interesting as victory is actually decided much earlier.

	12-06-2003 19:07									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well you know that you should get are level of tech three hundred years ago don’t you. We are only late thanks to the dark ages.

	12-06-2003 21:09									#13
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I must admit, I did like it, (in some older games, non-CTP2) to have a non-linear, or surprising game for this...........

Like in the good old times of CIV 1(yeah I know.........) to have bombers attacking my phalanxes......... Or being nuked down, while still building cannons, but it was fun as well

And Yes, the dark ages and the Inquisition costed us a lot of advances...........

	12-06-2003 21:36									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

yes it is always fun to see the defence lines crack by the use of remarkable machines.

	13-06-2003 04:45									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

But even so. If was only Europe and to some extent the middle-east that were affected by the dark ages and the inquisition.

But I've always found techs not representative of how the world's areas evolved anyways. I mean, China had forms of gunpowder (fireworks and firecrackers) in something like 1400BC, and Arabia was so far ahead of anywhere else in maths. When Europe was still talking in Roman symbals, Arabia was talking in digits with zeros and negatives. The Romans brought all that back to Europe. And then you need to look at law and order. No one could beat the Mayans at that. It's recorded the Spanish were stunned at the Mayans law and order.

But that's just some of the limitations of truelly modelling Earth's technical advancements.

	13-06-2003 13:12									#16
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AFAIR the most advanced for math were the greeks. (Aristoteles and so on......)

For china and gunpowder: It was Europeans converting it really into gunpowder and producing guns and cannons. But yes they used it far earlier than Europeans.

But sometimes I still miss those surprises

	13-06-2003 16:37									#17
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Around 500-300 BC, and as far as craftworks are concerned, the Celts where ahead of the Roman and the Greeks in all the fields to the exception of sculpture (I think there is another one but I can't remember it). And I think they were the first to use Iron in Europe...

	16-06-2003 20:22									#18
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Not to say the possibility of Atlantis.

That’s why I prefer the sci fiction end game modding. Far easier to model something that is not reel.

	16-06-2003 21:10									#19
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Not only this.

We had history, which you can study in the books, but as the first CIV said so nice: Build an empire to stand the test of time

But still, those nice surprises I sometimes miss (by the way, I am not using really the graph's.............)

	17-06-2003 00:11									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I have been planning for some time now a capture option for enemy spies and diplomats. Spies getting caught in your city and diplomats when they get expelled with the options

Ransom = money

Kill = one time regard – bonus + withal over civs

Brain wash chance to gain that spy/diplomat

Make prisoner /case a set amount of unhappy in the spies’ owners’ capital city.

Expel = no penalty or reward

	17-06-2003 06:31									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch (by the way, I am not using really the graph's.............)

I am using them extensively especially in the first part of the game as they are showing me if you are catching up with the AI civs, what are their respective situations and what you have to focus on. The military graph is very important IMO. In the later part of the game the graphs are showing me if I am growing more quickly than my opponents and the military graph allows me to watch the military power, and its growth, of the other civs. Important if you consider your defence or your attack plans.

	19-06-2003 20:59									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I liked the top 5 cities in ctp1 myself because you looked at them and got an invasion or slaving force reedy and just wipe them off the map.