10-06-2003 16:52									#1
	What do we want from the Ottomans? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Please discuss if we should make peace now, and if so, what it is we want from the Ottomans!

Maybe someone can sort out all the options (combinations of cities, tech and gold) below?

	10-06-2003 17:43									#2
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A little lost in the threads there BFM?

The FAM 1100AD report by Kloreep lists the options investigated by CiverDan:

quote: The Ottomans' ego has finally deflated enough to admit defeat, and they are now willing to negotiate the terms of their surrender. CiverDan has analyzed our peace treaty options; here are the best deals he saw: Philosophy+Sinop+Antalya OR Konya Sinop+Konya+Antalyn+Adana OR Bursa Sinop+Aydin+Antalya OR Konya As FAM, I'd really like to get our hands on Philosophy (we could then trade it to the Celts for Map Making, putting us only one tech behind again), but if we sign peace this turn, that means forfeitting Aydin. (If we do negotiate peace, I'd go for Phil+Sinop+Konya; Antalya is west of Ankara and would probably just culture flip back to the Ottos. Also, Konya is not on our map, so we'd get some map info out of it at the very least.) However, in addition to philosophy+a few cities or 4 cities, we have the option of continuing the war and trying to take Aydin by force. I'd advocate that approach, but that's partly because I don't have to worry about how to carry all that it (and also partly because I think we'd get one great peace deal if we did take Aydin); it would also run the risk of giving the Celts a few more turns to get Philosophy from another source. Please discuss this; it's an important choice. But don't you want to give our swords a little action?

The discussion has been going in there on what to do now for some time, but no-one has solidified exact objectives.

It is clear however that most if not all who have spoken favour attacking Aydin with what we have to see if we can take it first. Then, I personally would go for peace, getting as many cities as possible out of it, and Philosophy too.

My ideal terms would be Philosophy, Sinop, Konya and hopefully by the time we have Aydin one more city (Bursa?) plus as much gold as they have (if any.)

If we fail to take Aydin then a couple of cities plus Philosophy would be fine. I wouldn't want us still at war with the Ottomans after then if we have lost our forces. We need to look at the Iroquois from now on.

	10-06-2003 17:59									#3
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt A little lost in the threads there BFM?

Sorry - I missed that, obviously. I came back from a busy weekend and had to browse all threads rather quickly.

What we're in need of is an army comparison. I'm referring to the F3 screen. Are we weak, average or strong compared to the Ottomans? How about culture? (this might give us insights about the risk of culture flipping)

Can we have a clear picture (screenshot) of where those Ottoman cities actually are located? (I can't make them all out on the general map).

If we prolong the war without significant damage to either side, will the Ottomans likely give us more or less than they offer now? (this question can only be answered by people with expericence in warmongering, I believe)

	10-06-2003 18:03									#4
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From my little experience, I have noticed little change in terms where you press the attack but don't actually lose any battles to an ATTACKING enemy. If you lose some troops in our own attacks then that hasn't affected things much.

In short, from what I've seen, the only way terms go downhill is if the enemy starts to attack and win. Every other situation and there seems to be little effect.

* MrWhereItsAt waits for someone to tell him he's spouting bull

	10-06-2003 19:36									#5
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster If we prolong the war without significant damage to either side, will the Ottomans likely give us more or less than they offer now? (this question can only be answered by people with expericence in warmongering, I believe)

I can't comment then; look at the Legoland icon. But personally, I think Aydin and Philosophy are the two primary objectives. Thus, if we take Aydin by force, I think we'll be in a better position to get extra goodies (gold, cities) than we are now, even if the actual amount the Ottos will forfeit stays the same.

	10-06-2003 19:42									#6
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What I mean is: if we go for Aydin and are faced with a stalemate, will our chances to get goodies decline?

	10-06-2003 20:25									#7
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MWIA has it right from what I have seen. Only if they go on the offensive will we have problems with dictating terms.

	10-06-2003 20:30									#8
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Probably, if only because a stalemate will mean dead and/or wounded swords near Aydin rather than the current full strength stack. However, I think MWIA is right that the AI has to regain the initiative for the peace value to drop much.

	10-06-2003 20:31									#9
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Here's their land.
Pic isn't that great but Aydin obviously is that city surrounded by our cities. Bursa is their city to the north of opdslunch and Sinop is their city to the west and alightly to the north of opdslunch. Izmit is the one north west of Bursa with the luxs. Although their not going to give us that one. While Andyayna(sp) is the coastal one near their blacked out capital.

My priorities would be
Aydin
Bursa
Sinop
Philosophy

In that order. These are the only cities of any real use.
They won't give Aydin, Bursa and Sinop for peace.

Bursa and Sinop are both nice cities with decent land and Aydin is close enough to our capital to be productive.

So I think we should take aydin by force then take Bursa and Sinop, and phil if we can, for peace. If we can do this we'd be nicely set up and the otts would be screwed giving us a possible leader farm in 20 turns.

(edit -added city location descriptions)

Attachment: opdddd.jpg
This has been downloaded 129 time(s).

Last edited by OPD on 10-06-2003 at 20:38

	10-06-2003 20:46									#10
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Thanks OPD

	10-06-2003 20:53									#11
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Having fun wiht pics today.
Here's what our land would look like if we had Aydin, Bursa and Sinop.
Quite nice I think you'll agree.
I think I should be official photographer instead of all this vp rubbish.

Attachment: opdddd.jpg
This has been downloaded 123 time(s).

	10-06-2003 21:01									#12
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Now, what do we REALLY want from the Ottomans....

I would be happy with the heads of all their first born sons, and, oh, 50 of their fairest maidens.

But then maybe that's just me.

	11-06-2003 00:03									#13
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt with the heads of all their first born sons, and, oh, 50 of their fairest maidens.

Ok but remember, Briseis fairest of them all belongs to Hungryopd who fought so bravely to champion the capture of Edrine and so does deserve such a prize.

The gods would not be pleased if you were to take her away from him.

	11-06-2003 00:07									#14
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Personally, I think it'd be best if we just gathered one last group of archers and swords, then sent them right into Ottoman territory, then call of the war when we're almost out of those units.

	11-06-2003 01:46									#15
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Noticed:

• We're average compared to the Ottomans, the Iroquois and the Zulus. We're weak compared to the Celts.
  
• We have 5 VetArch, 3 EliArch, 8 VetSpear, 1 RegSword, 2 VetSword, 1 RegWar, for a total of 44.13 Army Points.
  
• The Ottomans therefore have a minimum of 35.31 points. This could be, for example, 8 RegSpear, 8 RegArch, 3 VetSpear, 3VetArch, to give an idea.
  
• Their maximum is impressive: 55.17 points, or something like 12 RegSpear, 12 RegArch, 5 VetSpear, 4 VetArch.
  

	11-06-2003 01:55									#16
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So, take out the capitol as well....

	11-06-2003 18:45									#17
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing So, take out the capitol as well....

hi ,

, this could put us at a better seat at the table , ....

but we also risk that they have a lot of troops there and nothing in the other cities , ......

its a gamble , .... but if we can pull it off , take the capital , get the techs and sinon and bursa , ....

have a nice day

	11-06-2003 21:12									#18
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I can't see with this resolution and color shading which military units are ours and which are theres nor can I see Ayidas current population.

I'm thinking that given our conquests, the Otts are on the low range of average from us.

Do they have visible units outside of cities? We could add up those points and get a better estimate of the defensive force.

Most likely their defensive units inside cities are roughly in proportion to city size.

	11-06-2003 21:15									#19
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I recommend taking Aydin by force, then getting Philosophy plus cities with a low chance of culture-flip from the Ottomans for peace.

	13-06-2003 19:36									#20
	Re: What do we want from the Ottomans? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Please discuss if we should make peace now, and if so, what it is we want from the Ottomans!

I suggest that we want to get an Ottoman that is the same color and fabric as our chair - one that will feel comfortable when we put our feet on it. (sorry, couldn't resist)