10-06-2003 22:37									#1
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Inspired by CFC's GOTM tournaments (even though I've never participated in one), I think we should try something new with our next AU game. Here's the idea:

DARs.

What does that stand for? During-Action Report. The idea is to create multiple spoiler threads for specific stages of the game. This could be based on turns elapsed, or Age advancement, or whatever. We could, for example, have a spoiler thread for 1000BC, 10AD, 1000AD, etc.

The goal is simply to get a clearer picture of what's going in each others' games, thereby helping us learn from each other. AARs are all fine and good, but most of the time they either 1) leave out a lot of strategic detail because the player is so glad to have finished (and/or probably forgets most of it!), or 2) just list accomplishments without any mention of how the work involved ("then I got the Sistine", "I took care of the Zulus around 200AD sometime", etc.). I'm not criticizing anyone's AARs. Rather, I'm proposing an alternative that will help in the basic goal of AU: to learn from each other.

Like the "QuickStart challenges" at CFC, each player would hopefully keep a timeline of important events leading up to a report date. Sure, it could require a little more work overall, but then again each "installment" would be a lot less daunting than writing a full AAR. Plus, it would be more interesting to read, because it's easier to picture what's going over the course of 80 turns instead of 300.

Thoughts?


Dominae

	10-06-2003 22:45									#2
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Dominae,

I think that's a great idea, and might I throw out another suggestion?

It would be great if the pace of AU games could be slowed somewhat. I only say that because I'd love to participate in them, but my civ time in general has to be slowed down. I've seen 3 AU courses go by without being able to participate in them, as the "pros" quickly advance to the mid and late game in the amount of time it takes me just to get to 1 AD.

Anyhow... just a thought. Your proposal is good.

	10-06-2003 23:24									#3
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I think you would need to discribe the layout and info you want. I have put up step by step with each worker move, type reports in Moo2 thread, but I doubt anyone wants that in CivIII.
When I play AU208 and now that I am running down AU401, I log each significant event. I did not put that in a report as it would be too long and boring.
Something like :
3400bc captured Rome, war with Iroq
2430BC 2 regular and 1 conscript warrior at Salamanca
4 archers in route
30ad great leader, have Oracle and Pryamids
170ad Switched to Monarchy
That sort of thing, but not every battle or every improvement or even new research.
So what would be useful? I had never made an AAR so I was not aware of what would be needed to make sense out the report.

	10-06-2003 23:29									#4
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Firstly, although like you I've never played it, my thoughts on parts of the GOTM system (which is probably relevant to the discussion):

1. The reason they have to have so many spoiler threads is that they're trying to be competitive as well. This is a good solution given their goals but it's not perfect. In particular the parts of any one game are divided at points that are often artificial from the perspective of that game. It would be nice if people did things like link them but it does make them more difficult to follow than AARs.

2. On the QSC in particular, I think it can be counterproductive. So much detail is nice but it's not released until after the game has been finished. It then takes the attention away from the first spoiler thread which people will be reading after they've played that part of the game. By next month everyone will have forgotten what the start may have been like. There is then little discussion of it afterwards.

On the current AU system:

We do have DARs! Just look at the spoiler thread. Some people post a lot while they are playing the game and others more afterwards. I often wonder what balance I should have between the two. I suspect I'll have to post AARs duplicating what I've already posted.

Also players ask for detail from others and get it. Some players have posted very detailed AARs, just look at 301.


So what you're proposing is to formalise this. The difficulty that first springs to mind is that we have to decide what is interesting before playing the game. I'm not sure how accurate alexman's predictions of what would happen in AU208 were.

	10-06-2003 23:56									#5
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I often do DARs - reporting on what I've done so far. In fact, I don't really do AARs... it's a string of DARs.

MARS!

-Arrian

	10-06-2003 23:58									#6
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vmxa1, IMO the best things to include in a report are the thought processes that go into the decision you make. Saying that you founded such-and-such city at such-and-such a date is relatively uninteresting (unless you decided to build it very early without the help of a Granary, for instance). Your reports a good, so I'll not elaborate further, but I think it's important to keep in mind that others read the reports to be entertained, and a list of facts does not do this (usually). The point with the DARs is to get everyone to write periodically as they play the game, hopefully bringing out thought processes since these are still fresh in peoples' minds as they write.

quote: So what you're proposing is to formalise this.

Exactly. Most people write DARs when they take a break to go to sleep or to work (or the wife makes them stop). I think it would be better if everyone could compare their games at set stages. True, number of tuns is an arbitrary measure, but I think it works well: after x turns, what did you accomplish in comparison to everyone else in the same amount of time? The DARs need not be very long, and in fact they should not be. With ~4 DARs per scenario, people should have ample opportunity to describe their game.


Dominae

	11-06-2003 00:16									#7
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I know I'm sloppy when I do my DARs. I don't keep notes while I play, so my DARs tend to be written from memory (without access to the game usually) the next day. My memory for Civ games is shockingly good, but far from perfect. Further, it's hard to explain things properly without adequate screenshots.

AU207 was my best effort in that regard, and it still wasn't all that good.

Doing really good DARs that take the reader(s) into your game takes work.

Like you say, it should be "this is how I set about getting the Sistine and it worked (or didn't work)" is better than "I got the Sistine." Except that the former requires that the player think to document what he/she is doing as he/she is doing it so that they can properly illustrate later.

So basically I'm just whining about putting more work into my DARs.

I agree with your basic premise, though.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 00:33									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Except that the former requires that the player think to document what he/she is doing as he/she is doing it so that they can properly illustrate later.

One of the best ways to learn is to actively "meta-learn", meaning you think about what you're learning.

Anyway, I'm not trying to force everyone to write super-duper AARs or DARs. I actually think that if we make DARs more formal in structure, people will make them better without even noticing it.

"Hm, well, it's 1000BC, and that was some pretty exciting stuff that happened in the past 3000 years. Time to go get a beer and write my DAR while it's still fresh in my mind."

That's basically what I'm aiming for (although you can replace the beer with whatever you want).


Dominae

	11-06-2003 00:40									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae "Hm, well, it's 1000BC, and that was some pretty exciting stuff that happened in the past 3000 years. Time to go get a beer and write my DAR while it's still fresh in my mind." That's basically what I'm aiming for (although you can replace the beer with whatever you want).

"Hmmm, time to get my axe and smash this computer into a thousand little pieces while my game's still fresh my mind."

(just a joke of course)

	11-06-2003 01:07									#10
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Hmm, if there is beer involved, I guess this is ok. Can't be that bad.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 02:16									#11
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I like what you are proposing, but I am not sure about the entertainment aspect.
I thought the stories thread was for that. I know I am not up making it fun to read. I thought the idea was to say what steps you were taking and how that worked, so we could see the ways that work and maybe even an optimal path.
Not that I did either one, but I at least now will try to think of it before doing anything else.
I do enjoy some of the ones people post, but I also hope to see what people are up to and see if I want to incorporate any of it.
Understand that I see some doing things differently and often better, but choose not to use those technics as I am also about fun. What is fun for one, may or may not be for another.
IOW the best method does not have to be used.

	11-06-2003 02:20									#12
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My one big concern about using multiple threads for AU AARs/DARs is the competition it would create between AU threads and other strategy threads. One of the reasons the system works so well with the GOTMs is that there's a whole separate GOTM discussion area. If we could get a separate forum here for Apolyton University instead of having it be part of the Strategy forum, that would make using several threads per game significantly more practical.

	11-06-2003 02:26									#13
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Is that really a big concern, Nathan? I mean, with 4-5 threads per AU game, AU would definitely monopolize the top of the Strat boards, but it's not like there would be no space left for normal Strat stuff.


Dominae

	11-06-2003 05:35									#14
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I too would like to see the time betwixt AU games lengthened a little. When I get home I had hoped to try the latest one quickly. Perhaps I won't be able to, if there's already another one out by then.

AARs, DARs - whatever. I know I'm not compelled to do them if I really don't want to - I just want to be able to try a full AU course!

	11-06-2003 08:56									#15
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I like it... I've been very frustrated with MYSELF about keeping up with the courses, and even more with the paucity / brevity of my own AARs. I recently re-read the Son of SVC thread, and (aside from having forgotten how intense it was), I was reminded how much more fun it can be to *really* report on one's in-game thinking.

Speaking strictly from my own, time-constrained perspective, it would be good if we: 1) slowed down a bit, and 2) identified non-turn-determined and in-game-relevant pauses (e.g., meet the first AI civ or discover a tech or discover a new continent, etc.), and used those for DARs.

Does anyone know if 'poly supports further nested threads, as MZO has been doing?

A further issue... once an AU game thus reported is 'over' (ever?), won;t we have a compilation issue?

Good thinking, though, Dom... I know I need something to help me take notes and report better.

	11-06-2003 09:59									#16
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miniAU303 - Industrial Age

	11-06-2003 10:05									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Jawa Jocky miniAU303 - Industrial Age

I like it, the only problem being how we get there (start a scenario at the Industrial Age?). We've usually tried to make our scenarios as "normal" as possible, but maybe people are open to some change. Let's remember to include it in our next poll.


Dominae

	11-06-2003 23:14									#18
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What about replaying the Aeson's legendary "So very cold on the map generator". When he on deity (Civ III 1.16) won by domination with MA's starting on all tundra island with couple of bonus resourses and iron. However it was a save, not *.bic. Is there any way to extract map from save to the editor?

	12-06-2003 01:30									#19
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pvzh,

AU already did a "Son of So Very Cold." Same basic idea, but not quite as crazy as Aeson's.

-Arrian

	12-06-2003 02:49									#20
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I like your idea Dominae! This way we could really exact compare games.

I tried to qualify my game playing the latest AU. I read a few reports and saw for example someone (Dominae I think) wrote: "...then I destroyed England at about 900AD...". I remembered this sentense and checked where am I in my game...(almost at researching Alphabet)

But this was almost the only "catching" point for me. But if we have more "milestones", it would be more interesting and the most important: the "junior" civ3 players will have more chance to learn - sense of AU.

	12-06-2003 02:54									#21
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'Milestone'. That's the word I was looking for when writing the original post. Thanks cumi.

By the way, point taken about the timeframe for AU games. We've been going at the pace of the fastest players, and not the slowest. Just to be a little different from CFC, how about setting a minimum 3-week interval between "courses"? You can always the game after three weeks, of course, but another scenario may have appeared by then. Or is 4/5 weeks better?


Dominae

	12-06-2003 08:50									#22
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Sounds good. We could try 3 weeks and see how that goes.

And milestones sound great. We could have generic ones like first civ killed, last same homeland civ killed, first overseas landing, end of each era....

Or we could have ones tailored to each game. For example in the last game, such milestones could be: the fall of Rome, the invasion of England, disocvery that the home continent was bereft of resources....

I'm not sure how we could specify game-specific milestones without introducing spoilers however. Moreover, when they find out one of these milestones, players would likely work towards them, subconsciously or deliberately, potentially restricting the great variety of strategies used in playing the game.

Any ideas on how we could do this or should we stick to the non-game-specific milestones for detailed reports?

	12-06-2003 09:06									#23
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I think the "milestones" should just be a set number of turns. Anything else affects gameplay and meaningful comparison too much, IMO. Here is what I was thinking:

DAR1: 0-40 turns, the very early-game.

DAR2: 40-80 turns, the plot thickens.

DAR3: 1000BC-10AD, mid-game.

DAR4: 10AD-1000AD, make it or break it.

DAR5: 1000AD+, late-game.

1000BC = turn 80, I believe. That looks like a lot, but I think we should try it and see if it's a good format. DAR1 should be short and sweet (play and report in one sitting), but still useful as a learning exercise.


Dominae

	12-06-2003 15:53									#24
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Within the 'milestones', what about breakups like diplomacy (contacts made, trades etc.), research (pace, techs researched), wonders (+FP) and wars (alliances, units count, upgrades...) ?
This would allow us to make matrix charts and see where everybody stands.

	12-06-2003 18:05									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage Within the 'milestones', what about breakups like diplomacy (contacts made, trades etc.), research (pace, techs researched), wonders (+FP) and wars (alliances, units count, upgrades...) ? This would allow us to make matrix charts and see where everybody stands.

Too complicated for me. We want this to remain somewhat leisurely, right? Charts and stuff obscures more than clarifies, IMO.


Dominae

	12-06-2003 18:12									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I think the "milestones" should just be a set number of turns. Anything else affects gameplay and meaningful comparison too much, IMO. Here is what I was thinking: DAR1: 0-40 turns, the very early-game. DAR2: 40-80 turns, the plot thickens. DAR3: 1000BC-10AD, mid-game. DAR4: 10AD-1000AD, make it or break it. DAR5: 1000AD+, late-game. 1000BC = turn 80, I believe. That looks like a lot, but I think we should try it and see if it's a good format. DAR1 should be short and sweet (play and report in one sitting), but still useful as a learning exercise. Dominae

1000bc = turn 81, but that would work out just fine still.

The other turns:

Turn 40 = 2190bc, not too great to remember...

10 AD = turn 129

1000 AD = turn 216

2050 AD = turn 540

	12-06-2003 19:46									#27
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The catch to year-based DARs is that they can easily contain spoilers. For example, one person might do a huge amount of exploring by 2000 BC while another does almost none. Also, differences in where people are in the game in a particular year (e.g. 1000 AD) can be enormous.

I would propose the following, with the first two written offline and posted later if players haven't seen the full home land mass yet and want to avoid spoiler information:

~2000 BC (I'm not sure how the exact years run there)

1000 BC

10 AD or shortly before meeting a civ off the home land mass, whichever is earlier.

Maps of all civs obtained.

Entry to the Industrial Age.

Entry to the Modern Age.

Game finished.

Any additional special points peculiar to a particular game. For example, "end of conquests using Gallic Swordsmen as primary attackers" would have been a good DAR point for Gallic Glory.

	12-06-2003 19:50									#28
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By the way, if a game ends before entering the industrial or modern age, it would be appropriate to post the final AAR in the thread for entry to the next age, since it has no information or events beyond the end of that age. In that case, the location of the final report could be noted in the Game Finished thread.

	12-06-2003 19:58									#29
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The reason I do not like the "event"-based milestones for DARs is that they're much more likely to cause confusion. What if we play a Pangea map and you obtain maps of all civs far before 10AD? I know it's not a big deal, but might as well keep things as simple as possible so as not to alienate newcomers.

Just like the spoiler threads we have now, there is always the chance of seeing something you're "not supposed to". I think it's a matter of using common sense not to ruin the game for yourself. If you're at 10AD and you still do not have all maps, just delay your DAR a bit until you do. When you go back, try as best you can to recount events up to 10AD.

Entries into the Industrial and Modern Ages I have no real problem with, but might as well keep things consistent and leave all the milestones at specific dates. (or number of turns). Oftentimes a lot happens between 10AD and the Industrial Age, so I prefer breaking it up at 1000AD. If we find that 1000AD-2050AD is too long a time period as well, we can break that one up too.


Dominae

	12-06-2003 20:37									#30
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Another problem with the 1000AD/ entering the industrial era timings is how will we make sure that players on different difficulty levels have DARs that roughly correspond.

That can make a large difference to timing and is one that the GOTM doesn't have.