10-06-2003 22:48									#1
	Harbors and Luxuries Put an end to popups!

It seems to me that we have made a terrible mistake by not building a harbor anytime sooner- we must do it ASAP!

Have you checked the map?

We could buy Ivory+Diamonds from RP for Furs and Incense

Spices from ND (if they build a harbor) for any of the above

And Wine from GoW!

Since we have a monopoly on our Luxs for now- Let's get the most out of them!

We can use ours to buy 4 Luxs, which is what RP offered, and that's without paying a penny.

In short:

Let's build a Harbor!

	10-06-2003 22:53									#2
	Remove this text

Does the war with vox mean we can't trade just yet anyway as their culture blocks the tiles?

Even if it does I think we should agree future trade deals with luxs for when we can trade.

One issue however is other civs knowledge of our territory. From what I'm aware of no other civ knows what luxs we have to trade is it ok at this point to state that we have incense and furs?

	10-06-2003 22:55									#3
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Since we have a lighthouse- doesn't this makes our trades possible over sea-tiles?

	10-06-2003 23:53									#4
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quote: Originally posted by zeit Since we have a lighthouse- doesn't this makes our trades possible over sea-tiles?

What a good idea it was to switch to that.



From the map the current state of play is.

GS with furs and incense and enough to go around.

RP with (IIRC) about 5 ivory, 4 silks, 3 gems and 2 spices.

ND with enough spices to trade and I think they have 1 gem.

GoW with plenty of wines, 1 gem and 1 spice.

Lego at a guess have probably got the dyes. And probably some others too.

In terms of our trade things should probably work out with us giving RP furs and incense for ivory and silks, giving ND either for spices and giving GoW either for wines. We then sell our remaining luxury to ND and GoW and buy Gems off RP.

RP will probably try and sell us Spices before a deal is made with ND, (maybe thats why they are eager ATM) but they will probably understand that there is no point paying for spices when we can get them in a trade for furs/incs.


So is it ok to let other civs know what luxs we have?

	11-06-2003 00:01									#5
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I do think we should build a harbor soon, but our main priority remains polishing off Vox.

Our desert cities need harbors to grow anyway, so once we've really broken Vox, we should use some cash to rush a harbor.

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 00:31									#6
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to that, Arrian.

	11-06-2003 02:19									#7
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I think we could spare OG now to build a Harbor. Probably even rush it.

It seems the fuss in the main forum has at least opened up communication. Luxuries don't really help us much at this point from a game mechanics standpoint, but just getting some trades going has to be good for our social standing. Also, we will need a luxury or two to keep at 10% luxury rate once our GA ends (it's getting really close). Once the war with Vox ends, we need another couple (or Marketplaces in EotS, Hurricane, and probably Tempest by that time) to keep at that level as well.

I'd rather make the trades now when we don't actually need them, as they'll still be covering us later when we do need them.

I don't think we need to do any map trading for it to work. We can see the routes, so the trades will be available to make.

	11-06-2003 03:44									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Good points Aeson.
I also think those ~250 gold to rush a harbor now would be well worth it in terms of foreign standing in the short term, and real cash when it ends.

Couple more of these 'yeahs', and I'd start a poll...

	11-06-2003 07:21									#9
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"yeah"

Didn't we bring this up at some point a week or so ago?

FLASH: GS RETURNS TO BUILDING; STARTS HARBOR IN OG

	11-06-2003 09:42									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

How about if we'd use a granary to short rush a harbor in O.G.? That would put completion at four turns while avoiding the waste of production involved in a complete rush build.

	11-06-2003 09:45									#11
	Got spare money?

How about we try to seal up some Luxury deals before rushing a Harbor? As Aeson pointed out, just the exercise of negotiating these trades will be more valuable to us than the Luxury benefits themselves (hopefully). There's no point in rushing a Harbor now if we're only going to finalize the trades 5 turns from now. Might as well save on some Gold.


Dominae

	11-06-2003 09:54									#12
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If we aren't in a big hurry, we're already working on a harbor in Sufa that will be ready in no more than eight turns (possibly seven, but that would probably requre compromising production elsewhere). If our purpose is mainly diplomatic, that's soon enough we can go ahead and get talks rolling. But I'm more reluctant to do a rush there since Sufa already has a courthouse and O.G. still needs one (meaning that O.G. has more catching up to do in its production agenda).

	11-06-2003 10:01									#13
	RP Trades Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Al;so...
RP will not have the luxuries avaiable for another 8 turns. This gives us time to negotiate with them... I told them that 10 turns would be a goot time frame to shoot for,. This would alow a bit of discussion before the deal is made.

What about the other team's time frame...


Mss

	11-06-2003 11:21									#14
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4 turns for a Harbor sounds about right. I think our GA ends 330BC? We'll need to boost the luxury slider for a couple turns, but it's probably not as expensive as a full rush.

	11-06-2003 15:18									#15
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MSS- the 2 Luxs RP won't have in the near future are the ones we'll have to pay for with gold. I think for now we could buy 1 or 2 from them (Silks and Ivory, or Silks and Diamnods, depends on what they have connected, but not Spices, as we could get it from ND in the future), and one from GoW (Wine). And when ND will have a harbor, we'll buy Spices from them, instead of from RP.

	11-06-2003 16:55									#16
	Put an end to popups!

And if other teams think we build the harbor just to be more responsive/less isolasionist, that could be appreciated too.
-
So get the deals first, then worry about the harbour.

	11-06-2003 18:56									#17
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Ok, so should our diplomats start negotiating deals from a standpoint of a 4-turn wait for a harbor?

-Arrian

	11-06-2003 21:14									#18
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Arrian:Sounds good to me.

Let it be known that in 4 turns we will have a harbor and want to use it.....

	11-06-2003 21:40									#19
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed Let it be known that in 4 turns we will have a harbor and want to use it.....

If no one minds I'd like to talk to RP. I'll set up some lux trading in 4 turns but also I'm going to talk a bit about hte war with vox. Specifically how they'd react if vox gifted them Eliopolis. Then maybe a few questions about the politics on bob.

Perhaps someone else would like to come too.

	11-06-2003 21:48									#20
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I'd like to come, if the time would be right.
Btw, we might want to inquire about RP's galley near the front with Vox.

	11-06-2003 21:53									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I'd like to come, if the time would be right. Btw, we might want to inquire about RP's galley near the front with Vox.

Ok what time would suit you they said they have some one in their chat room almost all the time so there should probably be someone around. Not that we can get into their chat room.

	11-06-2003 22:04									#22
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My preferred times are 14:30 to 20:00 during weekdays, most of daytime and some of nighttime during weekends, GMT+2:00.
I can try to make it to chats if they are held at different times than these, but I can't promise anything.

	11-06-2003 23:11									#23
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quote: Originally posted by OPD If no one minds I'd like to talk to RP. I'll set up some lux trading in 4 turns but also I'm going to talk a bit about hte war with vox. Specifically how they'd react if vox gifted them Eliopolis. Then maybe a few questions about the politics on bob. Perhaps someone else would like to come too.

This would be good. Please do. Let them know our perspective regarding any bobonian presence on our contenent (we view the same as if we were to have a citiy on bob). If they expect us to welcom one of thie cities on our contenent, then we expect to be welcomed on bob. We do now want any additional wars, but any other civilization's presence (prolonged beyond a turn or two) will be viewed as an act of aggression. We are willing to compensate them for turning the city over to us, however. Granted being gifted a city is one thing, keeping it beyond one turn would be another.

Also FEEL them out regarding Vox's survival. Here is their chance to "save" vox from almost certain extinction. We want to finalize our claim over our island and this means vox either has to pull up stakes and find a new home or perish. The question is ....where will vox go? Does RP have any opinions/ solutions regarding this?Play this by ear and do not broach the subject unless you feel that there is a receptive atmosphere to discuss it....


Also, I will not be around much for the next few days and any chats will have to happen with out me as my folks are in town until Friday morning.

Mss

	12-06-2003 00:11									#24
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I don't think we should say we'll pay them for the city. This will make them think: "Those damed fools on Estonia, one pays for accepting the city, and the other for givinig it away, ha ha ha ha!"

We'll just say we won't accept it, and take the city. If they seem real unhappy when that happens (actuall in-game takeover) we should consider compensating them.