12-06-2003 15:59									#1
	Chat with RP Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There's a thread for the other two so I fugured I start one for RP too. I emailed ET about a meeting today he said yes although didn't confirm the time. Am going to ask for a time and suggest we meet in the basic poly room.

I asked if he would meet with Shiber and me but in addition he specifically asked that MSS and Nbarclay could be there. However I think it would be good if anyone else around at the time dropped by aswell even if just to say hello.

Due to time zones it's unlikely that all four of us could make it at the same time. So perhaps if he suggests a european time me and Shib should go whereas a US evening time perhaps MSS and NB could go if that's ok wiht them. If they suggest some time in the middle then perhaps we could all go.

	12-06-2003 18:11									#2
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Meeting setup for between 12pm and 2pm PST
In #PTWTalks "Sandwich"

Thats in just under 6 hours by my reckoning.

	12-06-2003 22:41									#3
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I will be at work, so I can not make it,
Sorry.

Do you have an agenda?
Mss

	12-06-2003 23:41									#4
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1. 2 lux trade (not spices)
2. War with vox. How they'd react to being gifted a city. (don't know how important this is now)
3. Politics on bob.

Any comments/ideas. Will go there in about 20 mins if anyone else is around.

	13-06-2003 00:04									#5
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I'm there

	13-06-2003 01:35									#6
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The chat is a complete failure, and we haven't even started!
Noone's there. OPD disappeared a while ago... he pinged out. Might be computer problems...
Anyway, I need someone to replace me. I'll have to leave soon.

	13-06-2003 01:58									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber The chat is a complete failure, and we haven't even started! Noone's there. OPD disappeared a while ago... he pinged out. Might be computer problems... Anyway, I need someone to replace me. I'll have to leave soon.

Talking now Shiber, myself, BF and Togas present.

	13-06-2003 02:37									#8
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RP's galley is on Inchon-4. That will force us to detour and may prevent us from carrying out all of our plans for naval invasion of Vox's heartland... or perhaps we can still make it by moving units from one galley to another mid-journey, I'm not sure since I'm not familiar with the exact details of our plans... Edit: on second thought, I see now that there's an alternative path of the same length, so nm.
Anyway, we've conveyed that we are not pleased, and asked that they coordinate their movements with us from now on. They say that they intend to continue sailing across our shores. Perhaps we can sign some kind of an agreement, like we did with GoW as part of the Feudalism trade (hopefully this agreement will not end prematurely).

	13-06-2003 03:11									#9
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I think they were really annoyed by this whole galley thing togas seemed like he was going to loose it.
I don't see what the big deal is myself but I wasn't around when GoW "scouted" the coast.
From what they say they're going to scout our coast no matter what.

	13-06-2003 03:29									#10
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Overall it didn't go too well. The galley issue left a sour taste to procedings and didn't talk about much other than the lux trade.

The trade is agreed though.

Incense and Furs for Gems and Silks. They say they should have everything set up in under 10 turns.
We should get in contact once we have a harbour.

	13-06-2003 04:29									#11
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I have to run... I was just scanning the chat log, and a couple of things jumped out at me:

* While we are deservedly self-congratulatory for having dealt with the Vox threat thus far, look at it from the other teams' view: GS just opened a can o' whoopass on "40+ Immortals."

* Oh, and guess what, GS has a massive galley fleet.

* And, F*CK, GS knows where we live!!!

	13-06-2003 04:30									#12
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quote: I think they were really annoyed by this whole galley thing togas seemed like he was going to loose it. I don't see what the big deal is myself but I wasn't around when GoW "scouted" the coast. From what they say they're going to scout our coast no matter what.

That's all part of his game, I believe. And I actually think it went pretty well (the part I had been in)- Togas was just using basic whining tactic to get us more sympathetic, and some understanding was reached. The part about us being hard to deal with is just like when a little boy that doesn't get what he wants starts saying: "you're cruel/bad/evil".
That was really an obvious attempt to press us on the matter of the galley thing. In conclusion, I think we undestood there is little we can do at this time (since we are interested in stabilizing our relations, and finalize the Luxs trade), while Bigfree, and perhaps Togas as well understood the reasoning behind our arguments.

It didn't left any sour taste either, at the end I said I'm sorry that the way we view our map and the galley's scouting is different from the "norms" (although I'm sure Lego wouldn't have appreciated their galleys scouting along their coast either), BF said he's sorry too. They also gave their consent to future collaboartion regarding their galley, and promised it will be the only one. I think these are important achievements, given how "isolationist" Togas claimed we are.

	13-06-2003 04:38									#13
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quote: * While we are deservedly self-congratulatory for having dealt with the Vox threat thus far, look at it from the other teams' view: GS just opened a can o' whoopass on "40+ Immortals." * Oh, and guess what, GS has a massive galley fleet. * And, F*CK, GS knows where we live!!!

This confirms what was suggested before by NYE (I think)- We are now a serious military power, with a real sea-borne invasion capabilities. RP, GoW and ND as well suddenly reminded themselves we may very well be the ones to tilt the balance of a future war on Bob (or be a balance to prevent one, as I suspect RP wants to).
This also shows that like in RL, the players of this game have a relatively short distanced view on things: Even if Lego is growing into an economical monster, GS with it's proximity and huge army/fleet is far more dangerous (also note what Togas says about "not having filled their space", does he realize how false this argument, when considering global power balances?).

	13-06-2003 05:16									#14
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Speaking as MoDA;
I read the chat log and I am not pleased with the way the chat went. I specificaly stated ...

quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed I hope this galley is just mapping a trade route. Maybe this will help us avoid having to trade our WM. We should bring it up in discussions with RP. As long as it is a single galley, I have no issues letting it through our costal waters. ...

Granted we have an invasion going on, and we do not want any interfearance with our timetables. All we needed to do is give RP the go ahead on the condition that they coordinate with us over the next 2 or 3 turns so that it does not interfear with our landings. Maybe expect some royalties from their map sales....


[rant]
edited out as I missed a simple word...Shiber did not make any official request
[/rant]

If I am seeming abrasive and acting like a control freak it is because I am trying to balance the diplomatic arena and change the way others view us. I said that I have ideas and I am trying to guide the general process. I wish I was there so that I could have put quabash of the whole issue. We have more important things to discuss, like our trade deals, what to do about Lego, a new home for Vox, Tech trading, Bob Politics.

[politicaly incorrect]
dont sweat the petty stuff, pet the swetty stuff...
[/politicaly incorrect]

Your choice, trade world maps in the next 100 years orso, or let RP scout our coasts. We need to thaw relations and this can really help, but not if we act parinoid and secrative. We can hold back information. We can not give the impression that we are.

Also, we DO NOT CARE about Lego's policies, only our own. Let Lego look like the lone wolf, not us.

Is it really that big of a deal that RP wants to scout our coasts? Security might dictate it (It saved us with Vox), but how secure are we when we create friction with all the other nations over small issues. We will gain some trust, appreciation and finally RP will believe us that we are on a large island (small continent). It is worth the small price of "lost security" when you consider that we can then say.."see, we told you" ..then redirect the focus on lego...

We need to make some consessions in order to improve our relations. This is a small one.

We need to be a little more gracious folks.

Mss

	13-06-2003 06:44									#15
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I see no problem with the galley rounding our coasts. I never thought we could prevent it. We should require them to inform us of when and where they will end turns in our waters (ahead of time).

Trading the map however,... I still say no. Once they go around they will see that very little is left blacked out. That should be enough for them. If it is not, then... I'm not sure, but giving in to demands that compromise our security is not on for me. If bending over for them is required for peace and good relations, then they can shove something where the sun don't shine.

	13-06-2003 06:50									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: then they can shove something where the sun don't shine.

Maybe we can provide them with that map .

	13-06-2003 07:11									#17
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: then they can shove something where the sun don't shine. Maybe we can provide them with that map .

Hmmm. Having read the log now, I guess giving them that map may not be necessary. Hehe though.

It seems they are accepting the fact that the map will not be forthcoming. This is good.

	13-06-2003 07:54									#18
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Given what Vox has seen of our empire, and what can be seen from the coasts... what are we hiding our maps for now exactly?

By my count, this is what we hide by not trading our maps: (assuming someone scouts out our coasts)

H7, H77 (plains tiles)
BB9, BB6 (plains, horses)
C, C7, C9, C3, C2, C32, C22 (game, grasslands, Cyclone itself)

Everything else will be visable given Vox's map. If a team wants to investigate the proper cities, they can see all but Cyclone (and that is the only tile that would be blacked out...so they'd know it's there anyways). I think we should trade our map at this point, while it still holds any value. RP seems interested in our coastline, and GoW probably is as well. There isn't anything interesting there that can't be spotted by a Galley to be honest.

	13-06-2003 16:03									#19
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I also don't think we should hold back RP from scouting that much. It was Togas' reply of "no big deal" that needed further attention, and a chance to create understanding.

I didn't mind them scouting, but they didn't know the situation as we know- and Togas showed complete lack of understanding to what quite possibly is a problem for us, after our discussion, I tend to believe this has changed somewhat.

	13-06-2003 17:16									#20
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The good think of selling it now, is that the moment we use our GL galley to scout for other new possible land, no one will know about it.

	14-06-2003 20:22									#21
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I agree on selling our map: we did good to keep it from everyone up until now, but if we want to get anything useful out of it, we should do it now, start exploring, and sell the map in a some 20 turns once our sea going galleys are still providing us with more exploration then they can do on their own.

What I'd like in return?
- WM from GoW, maybe suplemented with some gold
- WM + luxury or gold from RP. Possibly tech (but they're not researching, it seems)
- part of tech from Lego. Luxury will come anyway, as we have a monopoly on 2 of them. WM would be better, but they won't sell (unless we need it for a lux trade)
- WM + tech/lux/gold from ND

Now, how much would we value our WM? 50 gold? seems not too much, and an extra 250 gold would be nice to receive. But, we need to make absolutely sure that we can sell our maps to everyone, instead of them spreading the new information around...

DeepO