12-06-2003 23:26									#31
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quote: Lied about the war? There was no lying about this war. This is a liberal conspiracy to overthrow the government.

That's why many Republicans in Congress want to create an independent commission to investigate the matter.

good call Fez

	12-06-2003 23:35									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Sava That's why many Republicans in Congress want to create an independent commission to investigate the matter. good call Fez

Bullshit.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...id=540&ncid=716

	13-06-2003 00:03									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith A couple of months ago she was speaking in a senate debate. As her time expired, John Edward (D-NC, who I am no great fan of either) approached the rostrum to speak next. Senator Clinton, who was not quite finished yet, told him to "sit down, shut up, and look pretty." There is no need for such behavior by a public official.

Now that's class.

	13-06-2003 00:16									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Conversely, I remember when the reactionaries dumped on Geraldine Ferraro so viciously. Heaven forbid a woman dare to run for vice president!

What on earth are you talking about? I can't remember even one negative peep from anyone about Ferraro. Gerry had some bad press from her husband's shady real estate dealings but that was about it.

quote: Countless people are cheated on and remain with their spouses. In fact, Christian traditionalists implore such people to stick together and work out their troubles. Who are you to judge her marriage? You don't know her relationship with Bill.

I call 'em as I see 'em. Imran is right. Hillary Rodham would never have carpetbagged a seat in NY, but HRC... Maybe there's a few fundies who have the warped thinking you're describing but I ain't one of them.

quote: IMO, the fact that she has remained with him despite his philandering is because she really does love him, however much he hurts her.

Oh please. The second Bill was out of the Whitehouse, Hillary packed up and moved out. They do not live together even though they are both New Yorkers now. When was the last time they we're even seen together?

quote: She could have left him in 1998 and not suffered for it, I believe. She would have engendered a huge amount of sympathy, even from those who previously hated her.

Her political career would have suffered because again, Hillary _Rodham_ is a politcal nobody. So except for the fact that she a) doesn't live with him, b) never sees him and c) doesn't even mention his name, yeah I guess you're right. Bill and Hillary are veritable love birds. We all should be so lucky in our love lives.

quote: Look at all the politicians who pen autobiographies during their careers. What makes her different?

Agreed. Scum sucking money grubbers the lot of them. There, I've treated her no different.

	13-06-2003 01:13									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Look at those who hate her. Reactionary idiots who can't stand seeing a woman who isn't willing to take a back seat to her husband. Were she a man, I'd doubt she'd be subjected to such rancor.

Yes, her husband's a man* and no one has an unkind word for him.


* A big burly Viking Man

	13-06-2003 01:14									#36
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Hey Sava.. what happened you didn't respond to my last post? Cat bite your tongue?

	13-06-2003 01:26									#37
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quote: A couple of months ago she was speaking in a senate debate. As her time expired, John Edward (D-NC, who I am no great fan of either) approached the rostrum to speak next. Senator Clinton, who was not quite finished yet, told him to "sit down, shut up, and look pretty." There is no need for such behavior by a public official.

That story sounds flakey. Is the source for it the Republican National Committee?

	13-06-2003 01:33									#38
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Both stories were on National Public Radio, complete with audio. The Edwards story also appeared in the Washington Post.

	13-06-2003 01:54									#39
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So the Hilary supporters dont see anything sly about a woman who after seeing her husband (the gov) in an altercation (of some kind) with someone who works for them says "He only does that to people he loves."

Gimme a break!

Hows about

'When the story threatened to surface during the 1992 campaign, you [Hilary] told me to "say it never happened."

I honestly dont see why so many like her. There are better choices, even if you are a democratic supporter.

	13-06-2003 02:01									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Both stories were on National Public Radio, complete with audio. The Edwards story also appeared in the Washington Post.

I searched both NPR and the Washington Post, as well as google searched the web, and found not a sign of the Edwards thing. It smells completely fishy, as no one would let Hillary, of all people, get away with it. The Republicans would be using the audio left and right.

Now, perhaps it was a joke? I've said similar things to my friends in jest, after all.

	13-06-2003 02:02									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Hey Sava.. what happened you didn't respond to my last post? Cat bite your tongue?

You'll note the article makes no mention of any Republicans who may have supported the probe, only quotes those against it. Sava didn't say all or even most support one, just "many." I'd doubt it was more than a handful, though, if any.

	13-06-2003 02:12									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Citing someone who has no character as proof of its lack in others...wooo! I've no doubt Morris is being somewhat truthful about the incident, but I also don't doubt he's lying about his side of it to make himself seem more innocent. He's a provocateur, after all. Whenever a scumbag like Morris tries to make himself look so rosy, you'd best take it with a grain of salt.

It's ok to tackle people if you're a successful Democrat. It's only worng if you're a Republican. Heck it's ok to kill your lover and dump her in Rock Creek Park.

	13-06-2003 02:13									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov A fool who won a landslide election victory in her Senate race, enjoys worldwide fame and attention, has quickly become among the most visible and respected Senators and who is now going to reap $millions from her book. Would you were so foolish, eh?

Doesn't it bother you if she lies? Or is lyingok when it's by your side? And helps them.

	13-06-2003 02:15									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Conversely, I remember when the reactionaries dumped on Geraldine Ferraro so viciously. Heaven forbid a woman dare to run for vice president! Countless people are cheated on and remain with their spouses. In fact, Christian traditionalists implore such people to stick together and work out their troubles. Who are you to judge her marriage? You don't know her relationship with Bill. IMO, the fact that she has remained with him despite his philandering is because she really does love him, however much he hurts her. She could have left him in 1998 and not suffered for it, I believe. She would have engendered a huge amount of sympathy, even from those who previously hated her. Look at all the politicians who pen autobiographies during their careers. What makes her different?

I don't have a problem with her sticking by Bill. I just have a problem with the lying.

	13-06-2003 02:36									#45
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I don't doubt that HRC said that; I wonder if it was as abrubt as it appears in print. DId Edwards laugh, or was he offended?

And GP, when is it okay to kill your lover and dump her body in Rock Creek Park? You have new evidence to present? You need to go to the police with it.

	13-06-2003 02:51									#46
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator What on earth are you talking about? I can't remember even one negative peep from anyone about Ferraro. Gerry had some bad press from her husband's shady real estate dealings but that was about it.

Gee, besides Bush Sr.'s thouroughly condenscending treatment of her--there was the rightist behavior that her candidacy was a joke. Wasn't helped by the supposedly-liberal media, which paid more attention to her diet plans and wardrobe than her positions as a candidate.

quote: I call 'em as I see 'em. Imran is right. Hillary Rodham would never have carpetbagged a seat in NY, but HRC... Maybe there's a few fundies who have the warped thinking you're describing but I ain't one of them.

Wait, you are going to say to me, in honesty, that most Christian preachers would advocate a woman leaves her husband instead of trying to work things out? Not even marriage counselors do that.

quote: Oh please. The second Bill was out of the Whitehouse, Hillary packed up and moved out. They do not live together even though they are both New Yorkers now. When was the last time they we're even seen together?

Gee, now Hillary is out of the White House and successfully enshrined as a powerful Senator, making more news than her husband and capable of drawing her own big name backers, yet she is still married to him, and guess what, goes out her way in her book to say, "I love him." Why? She has nothing to gain by faking love for him now.

Again, your arrogance and dismissing their relationship is astounding.

quote: Her political career would have suffered because again, Hillary _Rodham_ is a politcal nobody. So except for the fact that she a) doesn't live with him, b) never sees him and c) doesn't even mention his name, yeah I guess you're right. Bill and Hillary are veritable love birds. We all should be so lucky in our love lives.

Talk about a bizarre response. So, in 1998, Hillary was a nobody? Despite having been First Lady for 6 years and one of the most controversial figures in American politics, she was a nobody? Too funny. You didn't answer what I posited at all! Why didn't she leave Bill in 1998? She had the name, she had the fame, and she would have garnered tremendous sympathy. Heck, if she really hated him, leaving him might just have turned the tide of his impeachment and brought him down. Yet she remained.

quote: Agreed. Scum sucking money grubbers the lot of them. There, I've treated her no different.

Yet you still do by singling her out as some sort of demon. It's rather silly.

	13-06-2003 02:56									#47
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quote: Originally posted by GP It's ok to tackle people if you're a successful Democrat. It's only worng if you're a Republican. Heck it's ok to kill your lover and dump her in Rock Creek Park.

GP, have you ever been involved in a physical altercation with someone, Yes or No?

If so, does that mean you are forever unworthy of anything for the rest of your life?

Now, this presupposes the incident happened as the weasel Morris says, which is pretty unlikely. Truth is probably somewhere in betweem.

Oh, and as for Condit:

What evidence do you have he killed Chandra Levy? You are aware that the investigators have pretty much ruled him out as a suspect, yes?

Condit was also roundly condemned by Democrats for his obfuscations with the police. Can I also mention he's a conservative?

Thanks for playing.

	13-06-2003 02:59									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I searched both NPR and the Washington Post, as well as google searched the web, and found not a sign of the Edwards thing

Not that good at googling I see

http://www.primarymonitor.com/quotes/quotes.shtml

http://www.msnbc.com/news/826669.asp?cp1=1

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/poli...Note_Oct28.html

	13-06-2003 03:00									#49
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quote: Originally posted by GP Doesn't it bother you if she lies? Or is lyingok when it's by your side? And helps them.

Until Morris's claim is verified, a lie has yet to be proven. Let me tell you how much I trust Morris: 0.

Now, if it turns out he's being 100% honest, it frankly doesn't bother me too much, because it's a pretty minor incident. So what if Hillary chose not to disclose the sordid details in her own book? It's not like she should feel any loyalty to the weasel Morris.

Mountains out of molehills, that's all I can say.

	13-06-2003 03:06									#50
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quote: Originally posted by rah Not that good at googling I see http://www.primarymonitor.com/quotes/quotes.shtml http://www.msnbc.com/news/826669.asp?cp1=1 http://abcnews.go.com/sections/poli...Note_Oct28.html

Now, let's compare accounts:

From Adam Smith:

"A couple of months ago she was speaking in a senate debate. As her time expired, John Edward (D-NC, who I am no great fan of either) approached the rostrum to speak next. Senator Clinton, who was not quite finished yet, told him to "sit down, shut up, and look pretty." There is no need for such behavior by a public official."

And msn:

"Clinton asked Byrd to give her a chunk of his time. He happily agreed. When the hard-charging and Hollywood-handsome Sen. John Edwards rushed to the floor at the last minute and asked to speak, Democratic leaders had no time left to give him. Clinton couldn’t restrain a triumphant grin at the plight of a clear rival—in fact, one who is seeking the 2004 nomination. She spoke to him in a near shout—loud enough for the galleries to hear. “Just stand there and look pretty, John,” she said. He smiled wanly, and rushed from the chamber."

So Edwards wanted to speak without any time left, but asked to do so anyway. So Clinton uses the opportunity for a snyde remark. OooooOOOOOooooh. What will the evil demon do next?

	13-06-2003 03:15									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Gee, besides Bush Sr.'s thouroughly condenscending treatment of her--there was the rightist behavior that her candidacy was a joke.

Wow, talk about a vague response. Got anything better than mere hand waving? No? Didn't think so.

quote: Wasn't helped by the supposedly-liberal media, which paid more attention to her diet plans and wardrobe than her positions as a candidate.

Ya know I don't remember any of this at all. Diet plans? wtf? I remember some of the debates where Ms. Ferraro held her own against Bush Sr. I can't recall a single dismissive comment directed at her based on her sex. Yet you insist such comments exist.

quote: Wait, you are going to say to me, in honesty, that most Christian preachers would advocate a woman leaves her husband instead of trying to work things out? Not even marriage counselors do that.

The Christian fundies are your strawman, Boris, not mine. I personally do not respect someone who sticks with a philandering husband so that she doesn't hurt her political career.

quote: She has nothing to gain by faking love for him now.

Except for her re-election. Look, if she leaves him _now_, the right will scream "told-ya-so" and "what-a-hypocrite." Her credibility will be shot.

quote: Again, your arrogance and dismissing their relationship is astounding.

Fine, prove me wrong. Show me something, anything, that shows that she really loves him. Again I will repeat: a) they maintain separate residences IN THE SAME STATE, b) they aren't typically seen together, c) they barely mention one another - except to boost book sales. They remind me of Charles and Diana, another loveless marriage held together for political purposes only.

quote: Talk about a bizarre response. So, in 1998, Hillary was a nobody? Despite having been First Lady for 6 years and one of the most controversial figures in American politics, she was a nobody? Too funny.

Her health care agenda was completely defeated and she had to resign from all her official policy making positions in the Clinton administration. That's just about near to dead as you can get.

quote: You didn't answer what I posited at all! Why didn't she leave Bill in 1998?

Um, yes, I did answer you. She stayed with him so as to not hurt political future. A very calculated move.

quote: She had the name, she had the fame, and she would have garnered tremendous sympathy.

Sympathy at the cost of hurting Bill, the leader of Democratic party, and therefore the party itself. Not the best way to win friends amongst fellow Democrats. Really, now, this is pretty basic stuff here. Political marriages are as old as politics themselves. They are marriages of convenience.

quote: Yet you still do by singling her out as some sort of demon. It's rather silly.

No, I lumped her in with the rest.

	13-06-2003 04:14									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov GP, have you ever been involved in a physical altercation with someone, Yes or No? quote: Yes. [QUOTE]If so, does that mean you are forever unworthy of anything for the rest of your life? No. My issue was only with the lie. It's not even relevant to me if the incident was "between" the two accounts. The thing that is relevant to me is that the Hilary account differs materially from the truth. IOW it is a lie. Whether Morris is lying is another issue. Oh, and as for Condit: What evidence do you have he killed Chandra Levy? You are aware that the investigators have pretty much ruled him out as a suspect, yes? Condit was also roundly condemned by Democrats for his obfuscations with the police. Can I also mention he's a conservative? Thanks for playing.

It was just a random snipe about Condit. I don't think that the police ruled him out as a suspect. They just never pinned it on him. But they didn't find evidence of a definitive alibi or of someone else doing it (what was needed to exonerate him). Or did I miss something?

Condit was not readily condemned by Democrats. They took a while to go after him. But they did eventually hang him out to dry. Yes, you can mention that he is a conservative. Unlike you, I find lying as an act to be wrong. Rather than just finding it wrong when done by the opposition. I actually think that ethics is more important than whether my side wins. No ****.

	13-06-2003 04:17									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Until Morris's claim is verified, a lie has yet to be proven. Let me tell you how much I trust Morris: 0. Now, if it turns out he's being 100% honest, it frankly doesn't bother me too much, because it's a pretty minor incident. So what if Hillary chose not to disclose the sordid details in her own book? It's not like she should feel any loyalty to the weasel Morris. Mountains out of molehills, that's all I can say.

I like how you disagregated the issue into two parts. On the second part, I disagree with you. She has a habit of petty lies. That sort of thing creates ethical rot. I've seen it in people. That's not what I want in a leader.

	13-06-2003 04:29									#54
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quote: A couple of months ago she was speaking in a senate debate. As her time expired, John Edward (D-NC, who I am no great fan of either) approached the rostrum to speak next. Senator Clinton, who was not quite finished yet, told him to "sit down, shut up, and look pretty."

Amerika needs Hillary!

	13-06-2003 05:07									#55
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quote: So Edwards wanted to speak without any time left, but asked to do so anyway. So Clinton uses the opportunity for a snyde remark. OooooOOOOOooooh. What will the evil demon do next?

As Adam Smith pointed out, that wasn't exactly a classy move by the Senator.

	13-06-2003 05:12									#56
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It was a minor flaw. But it shows her imperious attitude. Like when she interuppted the invited speaker at her Wellesly graduation. Now...if anyone did that to her....

	13-06-2003 13:32									#57
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I'm not the biggest HRC fan on earth. I suspect she's a better lawyer than a politician.

But the degree of animosity towards her is amazing. It seems to me to be a case of making up one's mind first, then looking for excuses to buttress that opinion. The Edwards thing, for instance...seems pretty trivial to me, unless one is determined not to see it as trivial.

The weird thing is, she's never even been all that liberal.

	13-06-2003 14:08									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Look at those who hate her. Reactionary idiots who can't stand seeing a woman who isn't willing to take a back seat to her husband. Were she a man, I'd doubt she'd be subjected to such rancor.

Hilary hating is a phenomenon that has about 40% of the population in its grips, and your extremely narrow view of it doesn't even describe half of its adherents. There is a lot to hate there.

Firstly she is fundamentally dishonest, something that is not uncommon in politicians. Politicians are hated almost universally, along with lawyers (huge overlap there) and the press in the U.S. Hilary is not only a politician however, Hilary is a politician with no charisma, much like Richard Nixon. Unlike Richard Nixon however, we have yet to see any sort of genius (political, policy, speaking, debate) or remarkable discipline, or work ethic that made Nixon famous despite his unpopularity from the earliest part of his political career. She does have the same sort of persecution complex that Nixon did however, and seems to be at least as blind to her own faults as Nixon was. With a lot of luck she may rise to Nixon's level politically before her inevitible collapse.

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Rednecks in the boonies may hate her, but even her Senate colleagues have expressed their respect for her in her job. She is intelligent, articulate, and compassionate, and she has represented the interests of her constituents quite ably, which is why New Yorkers are satisfied with her job performance. There's nothing foolish about her. There is something foolish about people denegrating her out of their knee-jerk dislike for her politics.

My dislike for her politics is nothing compared to my dislike of her personality type, but even my dislike for her politics / erstwhile policies is very well-grounded. IMO NY lost probably the best Senator in the building when Pat Moynihan retired. Hilary Clinton is slight solace indeed.

	13-06-2003 15:52									#59
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Well, somebody without charisma had New Yorkers lined up at midnight on a Sunday night to by her book. Somebody must like her.

	13-06-2003 16:07									#60
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BTW, back on the original thread topic, Toesucker himself has given another version of this same incident that contradicts his National Review letter.

IIRC, in Behind the Oval Office, he says something about having had dental work that day and being on strong painkillers. He argued with Clinton, turned to leave, fell down, Clinton helped him up, they joked about it, end of story. Or something like that.

True? Who knows (or cares)? But it's not what he says in his open letter.