12-06-2003 20:50									#1
	Uk Education - What to do?? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yes, I know i go on about this a bit , but it's an issue I feel strongly about, why? cos it's a mess

Problems

- Young people are getting into extraordinary 5 figure debts before they reach thier mid twenties!!! , Financing study is very hard!

- The Wrong People are going to university in many cases, studying overly acedemic subjects which may not be suitable for them

- The assesment of a Degree has been dumbed down to make it easier, it is a test of who can research and refererence best, rather than who knows what they are talking about

- It is no longer enough just to have Degree, Since Mr average can now get one

- Degrees are not equipping graduates properly for the real world

- A Levels have become meaningless!, the 2001 reforms has left this once prestigous qualification in tatters!

- There are STILL not enough vocational courses!


Here then, Comes the Rothy Reforms

University Enterance would no longer be decided on funds , but acedemic excellence. Just the top 10% of achieving students would be able to gain access to University as a Minimum standard, with a further 10% being seleced from State schools and Mature students (some state students with grades less than those in private are genuinly more intelligent).

Roughly then 20% of the populance would be entering Higher education (Not 50 Mr Blair!!), the studies would be appropriatly difficult and would not need dumbing down in any way. These People will be suitably funded by the Government and in many cases given grants to help living expenses.

A Levels would once again be made a Respectable Qualification, A strong 4 A Levels should allow someone to join a firm as an office Junior, and be respected as reasnably Educated.

I Mention 4 A Levels, British college students will have the choice of doing 4 or 5 A levels (AND General Studies), as opposed to 3/4 at the moment, 20 hours a week is hardly taxing!!, In some countries pupils are expected to do 7+ simular qualifications.

Vocational Courses will start at 16, for a whole host of occupations, Students who are not acedemically clever should be pursaded to Join these schemes so that have good skills and are employable, or can do thier own trade.


Thoughts?

	12-06-2003 21:00									#2
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Let me guess: "The Wrong People" are poor people, right? There's a reason why the government wants them to go to university - they go, get a degree, are more likely to get a good job, and are no longer poor! It costs a fair whack in the short term but pays later in terms of reduced poverty, crime and welfare expenditure.

Your proposals, frankly, just seem like an attempt to reinstate the worst bits of the class system that we've spent the best part of this century trying to eradicate. They'd create clearly definible upper and working classes, and that's the last bloody thing we want.

Denying people education because they're not intelligent enough to meet some minimum government-set standard? Don't be so daft.

	12-06-2003 21:04									#3
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Sounds like you Brits are afraid to fail anyone... That really skews all the studies that "prove" how dumb Americans are... Though most of us are. We just aren't arrogant enough to deny and give minorities who don't deserve them degrees .... oh, wait we do that...

Entrance should always be absed on merit.

Yet, because it is already F'd up, those getting in on merit on going to be taught by idiots... Oh well.

We have the same problem with financing problems, with ppl getting into debt before they graduate. Yet, most of it is student loans, still there is a large group of ppl who get credit cards and wrack them up... it's a shame, oh well, more for me.

I also agree that ppl study worthless sheIt, get a real degree freaks! Oh well, they can be butler when I get rich. It would be nice to have doctorate in home economics folding my clothes..

	12-06-2003 21:07									#4
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Well, personally I've gone for the Open University. That's my only chance of getting qualified.

	12-06-2003 21:08									#5
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If you have a problem, just kill it, bomb it and stab it. Works in every situation.

	12-06-2003 21:08									#6
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Entrance is purely on merit at the moment. I don't know what Worthingtons is on about.

	12-06-2003 21:12									#7
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Paul, You seem to added 2 and 2 together and got 5.

My Suggestions were to create exactly the opposite, at the moment too many poor people are not getting enough access because it's too expensive and private school education vastly helps rich kids.

Which is why Entry should be based on Merit with a slight priority being given to State schools to compensate for the advantage private school students have.

People need to be Intelligent enough to go to University, otherwise they are going to waste a few years failing or the standards of institutions drop to accomodate these people.

We need a vast reversal - Entry on Merit, and Merit only, so that standards rise, and Poor people get the access to the top institutions if they have the ability!!

	12-06-2003 21:16									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Can you send me some of what you are on.

	12-06-2003 21:19									#9
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Yes, that's a formula for a fairer education system - and a very expensive one.

Poor people like me can always take a few years off, enjoy their youth, then knuckle down to some serious education with the OU.

Given that a good University degree is seen as of more worth than an OU one - well, if something is worth having, it's worth paying for.

	12-06-2003 21:20									#10
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Explain why you say that Mike instead of merely stating you disagree and that 'I'm wrong'.

Is the currently system *Really* Based on Merit?
Entry to some university can be on SINGLE figure points, a Standard which many many people can achieve.
Then it comes down to who actually the money, or wants to borrow money. Rich families have no problems supporting thier Children, Some Poor families will manage to get some extra support - but many others in the Middle dont enjoy such conditions - Is this the way you would prefer things Mike??

	12-06-2003 21:23									#11
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Cruddy - An OU degree proves you have the Ability to independently study and you are motivated person - something which is invaluable.

The Open University is a great thing, and should still remain as it gives people an option of study while continuing thier own lifestyle and without incurring the debt.

	13-06-2003 00:33									#12
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Everyone establishes debt between 18 and 30.

Should poor people get subsidised mortgages as well? Because, hey, they may be averse to a bit of debt and then it's really unfair on those exploited, downtrodden poor.

	13-06-2003 00:35									#13
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Hmm... I think the amount of debt is excessive for young people now Bodds - dont forget Young people are on lower wages and stuff - I dont want to gain Financial freedom at like 40.

	13-06-2003 00:45									#14
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That'll be your choice then. I just think that if people are saying education should be subsidised for the poor, so too should they argue that mortgages/houses should be, for consistency.

After all, I would reckon most people place shelter as of greater importance than education.