12-06-2003 22:44									#1
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hi, I borrow this idea from a game by the name of Shogun: Total War.

In that game, they had a system somewhat like civ 3 where the "white" units, like barbarians, weren't part of a civilization (or in the case of Shogun, a "clan"). In Shogun, they were Rebels, and were in the entire game, unlike barbarians. Also, in Shogun, they could control provinces. I think civ4 should include the ability for barbarians (or rebels) to control cities.

In civ3, let's say you take over the French and destroy them, there really isn't a chance for them to rise up any more. With a Shogun-like system, discontent in a city that isn't of your nationality could breed hostile units, such as guerillas.

that's my idea and it makes sense to me, but doesn't everyone have their own thoughts on how to make this game better...

	13-06-2003 03:47									#2
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Similar to Civ 2, where a city could "go red" if barbarians overwhelmed its defenses and entered?

Though I like the current system better (if they could control cities, they'd be a real civ! ), it was a nice stroke of luck if an opponent city I coveted fell to barbarian hands, allowing me to get over there and claim it myself without even starting a little old war.

	13-06-2003 05:49									#3
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This could be implemented in espianoge very effectifely. You could get an ability to incite terrorists (which would function like modern barbarians) Inside a civ of your choice. Realistic, strategic, and very fun.

	13-06-2003 10:13									#4
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"if they could control cities, they'd be a real civ"

actually, the system in Shogun worked rather well. In that game, some provinces start out in rebel hands, but it works great and even adds to it. If you dont have a province with "100% loyalty or higher", then you need to take care of that, like with occupying troops. this seems a lot better to me that just having a civ revert to a different one while you lose all troops in the city...

	13-06-2003 21:24									#5
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I would like it better if when a city flipped your units would have a chance of being killed or wounded but driven from the city.

	13-06-2003 21:46									#6
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yes, but i think most agree that automatically losing all of your units is unfair...

	13-06-2003 22:16									#7
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I like this idea. It could add much-needed depth to espionage (beyond building the Intelligence Agency to see how many units your opponent has). I don't think they'd use it for an expansion, but it is a possibility for Civ4 in the future.

	13-06-2003 22:19									#8
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As to losing your units as part of a culture flip, I think that it is somewhat realistic (though still annoying). Think of it as the people rising up against you and doing whatever they can to crush your conquering forces. It adds a degree of difficulty to conquering other civs, particularly cultural civs. Taking Babylon in the Industrial Age is touch and go (but doable with hordes of tanks ).
If you don't like the culture flips you can turn them off when you start your game.

	13-06-2003 22:20									#9
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yeah, there's just no rebellion or civil war in the game. its just their on your side or on your enemies side.

	13-06-2003 22:22									#10
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"As to losing your units as part of a culture flip, I think that it is somewhat realistic (though still annoying)"

let's say they had a battle for the city. every single on of your troops doesn't die, they retreat. maybe they could give us some dead troops and some damaged ones, or all damaged ones that appear outside the city. but i dont think a complete slaughter/destruction of every single troop you have in the city is realistic...

	13-06-2003 22:30									#11
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I was thinking along the lines of your forces are defending from the peasant onslaught. It's similar to trying to take a city...the defending forces don't give up the fight. They stay until the bitter end.

	13-06-2003 22:34									#12
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Hmmm, further thoughts form my last post...
Not that it is totally realistic in real life for defenders to ALWAYS stay, but the AI already tends to send some of its defenders out of a city before you attack it. If they added a "retreat from city" function if a defender is doing poorly then you'd constantly see AI defenders leaving their city if they were damaged and it would be a cakewalk for the human players.

	15-06-2003 01:09									#13
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i'm only saying when you take a city and the city itself re-joins its original civilization, thats all. I dont want defending units to flee the city when they're being attacked by other units.

	15-06-2003 01:35									#14
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That's what I meant too. I was seeing it as a "revolution against the conquerors" by the people inhabiting the city. I was kind of adding a little detail for myself of "why" you lose your units when a city rejoins it's parent civ after conquest.
I don't suppose it really matters though because it's probably not going to change anytime soon. Maybe for Civ4.

	15-06-2003 21:49									#15
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we can both agree that it wont change soon...

i guess my real problem is how "all or nothing" it is. either all of your units are alive and in perfect health, or they are all instantly destroyed.

	16-06-2003 04:22									#16
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It's tough to lose your units to a flip like that, but it does add a degree of uncertainty to the game. It's a thin line we walk when warring with high culture AI Civs. We have to be careful not to leave too many units in a city if we're afraid it will flip, but at the same time we have to be able to protect it. I will occasionally put most of my defending units outside the city (depends on the situation), and if it does flip back then I'm ready to retake the city again.

	16-06-2003 12:57									#17
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i'm questioning the "realness" of this though...

	16-06-2003 22:15									#18
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I suppose it could be "realistic" in certain situations and "unrealistic" in others. Like I said above though I was just trying to justify for myself why a certain game situation is the way it is. It's not that I necessarily like it, but it's part of the game right now. If it gets changed then so much the better.

	16-06-2003 22:29									#19
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I don't think that losing your units is unrealistic at all. The citizens have risen up and gained control. Not all units will die. Some may surrender. When that happens they will obviously be disarmed and then imprisoned, executed, or sent packing for home as civilians. However they are dealt with, they cease to function as a military unit.

	17-06-2003 04:07									#20
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hi ,

if one builds courthouses and other buildings , gets lux , makes his or her citizens happy there is no need to be worried about flipping , .....

have a nice day

	17-06-2003 04:13									#21
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , if one builds courthouses and other buildings , gets lux , makes his or her citizens happy there is no need to be worried about flipping , ..... have a nice day

There is always a chance it could flip. Awhile back I was playing a Monarch Chinese game and annihilating the Arabs. The Arabs were right next to me and had little culture compared to me because I took many of their cities (including their capital. then their next capital, and then their third capital ). Around 100 or so turns after I took this one particular city and had built courthouse, police station, marketplace, etc., had 7 luxuries, and was building the Iron Works (nice city), it decided to flip on me!

	17-06-2003 04:22									#22
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"I don't think that losing your units is unrealistic at all. The citizens have risen up and gained control. Not all units will die. Some may surrender. When that happens they will obviously be disarmed and then imprisoned, executed, or sent packing for home as civilians. However they are dealt with, they cease to function as a military unit."

some may leave, too. i'm saying having the city stay with you and all your units alive or having the city "flip" over and all of your units gone isn't realistic. too black and white.

	17-06-2003 04:26									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill There is always a chance it could flip. Awhile back I was playing a Monarch Chinese game and annihilating the Arabs. The Arabs were right next to me and had little culture compared to me because I took many of their cities (including their capital. then their next capital, and then their third capital ). Around 100 or so turns after I took this one particular city and had built courthouse, police station, marketplace, etc., had 7 luxuries, and was building the Iron Works (nice city), it decided to flip on me!

hi ,

and where was your second palace , .....

it can still happend , aldo the chances of doing so are less when you build firts a couple workers from captured cities , let a settler from your civ join and spread the new workers with the identity of the old civ join your cities far away , that tends to help a lot , .....

as you shall get more experience you shall manage at one point to have no more flips from your side , but loads of flips from them , ....

have a nice day

	17-06-2003 04:34									#24
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , and where was your second palace , ..... it can still happend , aldo the chances of doing so are less when you build firts a couple workers from captured cities , let a settler from your civ join and spread the new workers with the identity of the old civ join your cities far away , that tends to help a lot , ..... as you shall get more experience you shall manage at one point to have no more flips from your side , but loads of flips from them , .... have a nice day

Umm, I may not be Aeson or Dominae, but I don't consider myself "inexperienced".

This was a completely random flip. My palace was closer to this city than the Arab's newest palace, it had been roughly 100 turns as I had mentioned, I had over twice the culture of the Arabs, and more of the citizens in the city were Chinese than Arab. It made no sense to me why it flipped, but it did.

On another game (also Monarch), I was playing the Carthaginians and battling the Babylonians in the industrial age. I took their entire empire with not one flip (and that option was turned on) even though they had half again as much culture as I did.

	17-06-2003 04:40									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill Umm, I may not be Aeson or Dominae, but I don't consider myself "inexperienced". This was a completely random flip. My palace was closer to this city than the Arab's newest palace, it had been roughly 100 turns as I had mentioned, I had over twice the culture of the Arabs, and more of the citizens in the city were Chinese than Arab. It made no sense to me why it flipped, but it did. On another game (also Monarch), I was playing the Carthaginians and battling the Babylonians in the industrial age. I took their entire empire with not one flip (and that option was turned on) even though they had half again as much culture as I did.

hi ,

where does it say that you are "inexperienced" , ....

it does happend and this is normal if there are still a lot of citizens of the old civ in a particular city , ....

its a reflection of the real world , ....

have a nice day

	17-06-2003 05:19									#26
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quote: Originally posted by panag where does it say that you are "inexperienced" , ....

From your quote above...

quote: Originally posted by panag as you shall get more experience you shall manage at one point to have no more flips from your side , but loads of flips from them

I wasn't offended by the comment, I was just wondering why you thought I was inexperienced. I may only be chieftain status on 'Poly, but I've been playing Civ3 off and on for a few years now and haunting 'Poly (without registering and posting) for almost that same amount of time.

Maybe I just read too much into the comment. If so then sorry. Shake on it.

	17-06-2003 05:30									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill From your quote above... I wasn't offended by the comment, I was just wondering why you thought I was inexperienced. I may only be chieftain status on 'Poly, but I've been playing Civ3 off and on for a few years now and haunting 'Poly (without registering and posting) for almost that same amount of time. Maybe I just read too much into the comment. If so then sorry. Shake on it.

hi ,

read again , ....

as you get more experience > meaning as you play more games , this has nothing to do with your poly status btw , even people who play ten games on a row in deity can still learn something new when they play game twelve on warlord , .....

we are all different and we each have our own little tricks and experience to deal with for an instance the same problem , .........

so , as you get more experience while playing civ and ptw you shall yourself ( each individual on an other way ) develop your own solutions and adapt to the situation , with or without the input from others , .......

panag wipes sweat of head , hoping this is a clear explanation , ..... >

have a nice day

	17-06-2003 05:41									#28
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , read again , .... as you get more experience > meaning as you play more games , this has nothing to do with your poly status btw , even people who play ten games on a row in deity can still learn something new when they play game twelve on warlord , ..... we are all different and we each have our own little tricks and experience to deal with for an instance the same problem , ......... so , as you get more experience while playing civ and ptw you shall yourself ( each individual on an other way ) develop your own solutions and adapt to the situation , with or without the input from others , ....... panag wipes sweat of head , hoping this is a clear explanation , ..... > have a nice day

It is. I was assuming that you were saying experience based on my current 'Poly status.

I agree with you totally about developing our own tricks and the like, as well as learning new things on 'Poly which is why I started frequenting the site in the first place. I've learned a lot here over the years, and developed some of my own "SOP" and "tricks".

Back to that game I was talking about though (and unfortunately I don't have screenshots since it was a while ago), but I still think it was a random flip. I had everything going for it not to flip as I mentioned in a post above, but it flipped anyway. I think it was just an RNG thing. There's always that slim chance of it flipping, even if you have everything going your way. But that's part of the fun of Civ3. If everything always went my way then it wouldn't be fun to play.

	17-06-2003 07:50									#29
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When I got civ3 the first thing I wished it had was some sort of rebellion or civil war, etc. The problem is that a lot of the time the causes for a rebellion would be very hard to incorporate into civ3. For example, how could you implement the War Between the States into civ3? Anyway, in civ3 a government always has perfect control of its nation, but in real life sometimes the government doesn't have control of an area of its empire because of poor police or the area has rebelled and made itself its own nation. And, it's safe to say most of today's nations did not start off in 4,000 BC. They were part of another country and then rebelled (look at the Americas).

	17-06-2003 14:36									#30
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I miss the barbs taking control of cities, it one of the things I wish they had left in the game