13-06-2003 18:36									#31
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by rah Unfortunatly the root cause is Jewish exsistence.

I am sure this could stop, if both sides decide to begin to tolerate each other. The Arabs have much to win with the Israelis, and vice-versa.
The nationalistic and religious hatred could abate quite quickly, at least in Palestine, if the objective reasons to give in to them (economic misery, having relatives killed, houses destroyed, humiliation etc.) would stop.
In history, there have always been important Jew settlements in the Arab world, and the Jews had nearly no problem with their hosts, unlike what happened in Europe. It is not a racial hatred, but merely a hatred that comes from both sides' utter willingness not to sort out things together.

Palestine needs a powerful Abu Mazen at the same time Israel needs a powerful Itzakh (sp ?) Rabin.

	13-06-2003 18:49									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Proteus_MST :

Did you see the huge crowds of people around the bombed car? Now imagine 10 Israeli policemen in the middle.
It will end either by lynch or by massacre.

Israel knows the repercussions of assassinations on public opinion and incitement, and arrests are done when possible. Almost always actually. For every terrorist assasinated by Israel, 50 sit in jails. You just never hear about it because it's not worth reporting.

	13-06-2003 20:04									#33
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Eli Proteus_MST : Did you see the huge crowds of people around the bombed car? Now imagine 10 Israeli policemen in the middle. It will end either by lynch or by massacre. Israel knows the repercussions of assassinations on public opinion and incitement, and arrests are done when possible. Almost always actually. For every terrorist assasinated by Israel, 50 sit in jails. You just never hear about it because it's not worth reporting.

Yes.
Of course, this may be the case,
it wouldnīt make sense for german (or european) newspapers/news magazines, to report about every Palestinian arrested, it would make much less interesting news than to report about palestinians (or Israeli) killed and wounded.

But at the same time I also agree with spiffor about the reasons which drive many palestinians into supporting Organizations like Hamas.
I also think, that the one thing both sides are missing is a leader, with the will to peace and respect for the other sides, who is also respected by his own people.

	13-06-2003 20:09									#34
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Spiffor: of course arabs had no problems, as long as they ran the show ( not to mention that "no problems" is relative to medival times, which say very little).

Hamas won't stop, as long as it exists. And since Abu Mazen won't be doing anything, the only ones left to act are the IDF.

	13-06-2003 20:11									#35
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Azazel And since Abu Mazen won't be doing anything

Why provoke a civil war you're not sure you can win yet? And if Israel keep insisting on cutting Addas off at the knees they are going to have to deal with a monster almost entirely of thier creation on thier own.

	13-06-2003 20:25									#36
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

how exactly will not fighting Hamas help him fight it?

	13-06-2003 20:29									#37
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

------------------------
Jun. 13, 2003
After rejecting ceasefire, Hamas leaders 'marked for death'
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Israel has decided to target top Hamas leaders, including founder Sheik Ahmed Yassin, officials said Friday, confirming a policy change likely to speed up an attack-revenge cycle that has already claimed 46 lives in four days. Israel decided to escalate its war on Hamas after the Islamic militant group last week rejected cease-fire talks, said an Israeli security official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Hamas leaders not previously targeted by Israel in the past 32 months of fighting are now marked for death, the official said. They are considered "ticking bombs" and therefore legitimate targets because they set policy and order attacks on Israelis, the official said.

Avi Pazner, a government spokesman, said "there is no immunity for anybody who either orders or executes terrorist activities." Raanan Gissin, an adviser to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, insisted there was no policy change, but said: "We don't target political leaders, but if those leaders have politics of murder, we go after them."
------------------

read full article here:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...d=1055482890627

It's about time, if you ask me. If the US has the right to hunt down Al Queda, then Israel should have the same right to hunt down every Hamas leader!

I wish Israel the best of luck in hunting and killing Hamas!

	13-06-2003 20:36									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Spiffor: of course arabs had no problems, as long as they ran the show ( not to mention that "no problems" is relative to medival times, which say very little). Hamas won't stop, as long as it exists. And since Abu Mazen won't be doing anything, the only ones left to act are the IDF.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with Hamas being attacked, and its activists being arrested or killed. This is a terrorist organization who threatens the Israeli security, and it is obvious the Israelis should fight against it. I have no doubt that the Hamas will tirelessly attack you as long as it exists, and that's why it should eb destroyed. By the IDF if needed.

However, you have to know that the Hamas will keep reviving no matter how many times you destroy it, if the huge bulk of the Palestinians continues to hate you. This hatred is adressable, and IIUC, Haifa is a perfect example of Jews and Arabs living in harmony, at least until the second intifada begun.

Long-sightedness in the relations with the Palestinians is extremely needed, and is one of the indispensable elements of success if you want peace.

	13-06-2003 20:58									#39
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST But the more Palestinians die, the more support Hamas will get from the palestinian Population and the more Suicide Attacks will happen. There was AFAIK a time where there were much less bombings than today, it was the time where there was a glimpse of hope and the Summits at Oslo. Has the Policy of Retaliation against the Palestinians done anything to lessen the number of Suicide attacks against Israel? I doubt it.

Absolutely. Since Operation Defensive Shield, the amount of Suicide Bombings have dropped rapidly (Remember that in March 2002 there was pretty much a succesful bombing almost every day and that was before Israel went into the West Bank.

And the Oslo process increased the terrorism, because it allowed Arafat and others to give Hamas and other groups more liberty (and supply them with smuggled weapons and encourage and fund them, etc).
The eight years of the peace process saw far more terrorism than the preceeding eight years.

	13-06-2003 21:03									#40
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST So the question is, if there arenīt other ways to get rid of those Hamas Members, maybe for example by Police actions..

Well, Abbas has said he will do no such thing. And when Israel can, Israel does arrest such people. Often, however, the leaders are heavily surrounded by both armed bodyguards and civilians (indeed, they intentionally hide behind civilians) in very crowded areas - meaning that there is a strong likelyhood of a firefight breaking out and causing far more civilian casualties (not to mention that the terrorist would have a good deal of warning when the IDF starts building its forces to go inside.

	13-06-2003 21:07									#41
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Haifa is a perfect example of Jews and Arabs living in harmony

I'm pretty sure the Arabs in Haifa don't have textbooks inciting hatred against Jews, as those in the territories do. That is certainly something Abbas could change.

	13-06-2003 21:12									#42
	Got spare money?

As I said in the other thread, Israel can go around killing Hamas leaders, but what happens? A few months later some guy lowre in the organization comes up an replaces him. The vast majority of suicide bombers coem from the West Bank, which means that even the huge invasions of Pal. terrotory last year and the massive military precense there has NOT destroyed Hamas in the West Bank. Missiles from helicopters can;t possibly do more in Gaza than 20,000 with tanks on the ground can do in the West Bank. Even if Israel risked the huge bloodbath it would entail to assume the same level of control in Gaza as it has in the West Bank, that would still not end Hamas.

Hamas is a political organization with a militant wing. The militant wing can be hurt militarilly, but not the political side, and the political side can always spawn new militant wings. The solution is inherently political in nature. Any action that makes a political solution more difficult in the long run makes a military "victory" impossible.

	13-06-2003 21:15									#43
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Edan I'm pretty sure the Arabs in Haifa don't have textbooks inciting hatred against Jews, as those in the territories do. That is certainly something Abbas could change.

Oh yeah, its all the textbooks..Imagine a little pal kid, waiting a few hours for his family to get through a roadblock, maybe with family in an Israeli prison, or knowing friends or family killed in some way by the violence. Well this kid gets to school (if the schools are open and he isn't forced to be home 24hours a day for a few weeks ue to a curfew), and there he reads a textbook about how the Israelis are just like him, people. And certainly, he will take to heart the lesson from the book much more, than say, the lessons from his life....

Yup, its all about the textbooks.....

	13-06-2003 21:22									#44
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Israel can go around killing Hamas leaders, but what happens?

The next leader will rise to power. But he will be 10 years younger, less experienced, the level of the bombs he makes will drop, his knowledge of the area is worse, etc, etc. The result? Overall terror level and quality drops.
This is what happened in Def. Shield, most of the 30-40 years old Lebanon veterans, who built the new infrastructure etc, were captured or killed and replaced by 20 year olds who knew much less.

	13-06-2003 21:25									#45
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yeah, but they get on the job experience becuase the fact is that the organization survives. The number of dead Israeli drops, but the deaths do not stop.

You gain a temporary advantage, but no concrete victory.

	13-06-2003 21:32									#46
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by GePap Yeah, but they get on the job experience becuase the fact is that the organization survives. The number of dead Israeli drops, but the deaths do not stop. You gain a temporary advantage, but no concrete victory.

But if we're trying to make Abbas stronger than Hamas, wouldn't making Hamas weaker, even temporarily, in order to give Abbas more of a chance to increase his power be a step in the right direction?

	13-06-2003 21:44									#47
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

How does this make Abbas stronger? Abbas has little political support from the average Palestinian as is, and if killing hamas leaders means sending missiles into Gaza, which invariably kill some bystander (as it does), then Abbas gains no support, since the average Pal would say: "what do we get for supporting this guy? Restrictions are the same, and we might die walking in the street..."

Viewing this as an inhrently military or security issue is absurd. this is a political issue. If Hamas is so strong in Gaza it is because it has built a wide political base, speically with its charitable works: if you have a probem with housing, or food, whom do you go to? The PLA, or Hamas? (answer, Hamas). The only way the PLA can counter this is by showing that supporting them means a better life than supporting Hamas,. but they can;t do so, not yet.

Israelis always keepsaying that all the PLA has to do is kill Hamas people and act with violence towards the militant and al will be nice, and thne point to 1996 as their example. But the fact is that in 1996, the PLA could show some amount of benefit to its supporters, and even though they cracked down, it wasn;t some killing spree, people were sent to jail. Given the satte of PLA jails at this time, they can hardly do that, and the average Palestinains will not support any palestinain faction that instigates anything like a civil war, becuase they ahve the mentality of a group as one under seige, so anyone that tries to undercut us is trying to sink us all.

	13-06-2003 22:43									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Actually, as a friend of mine that served in the SOF said, Hamas' military leadership is very inexperienced, and most of it's operations fail. The IJ are much tougher, ( also since they have no other activities besides terror).

quote: However, you have to know that the Hamas will keep reviving no matter how many times you destroy it, if the huge bulk of the Palestinians continues to hate you. This hatred is adressable, and IIUC, Haifa is a perfect example of Jews and Arabs living in harmony, at least until the second intifada begun.

Why so? Hamas never had any problem recruiting suicide bombers. The problem was building explosives, logistics, etc.

	13-06-2003 22:52									#49
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by GePap How does this make Abbas stronger?

It doesn't. It makes Hamas weaker. Abbas is the one thats going to make himself stronger.

	13-06-2003 23:14									#50
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Why so? Hamas never had any problem recruiting suicide bombers. The problem was building explosives, logistics, etc.

Hamas gets much of its money from private donors, not only from Saudi Arabia. They get all their manpower from the Palestinian population. If you don't cut the support, all these elements will rebuild / revive the Hamas. Until either the support itself disappears, or until Israel disappears

	13-06-2003 23:36									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Another Hamasnik down in Gaza.

	13-06-2003 23:42									#52
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Eli Another Hamasnik down in Gaza.

Are there bystanders dead as well ?

	13-06-2003 23:45									#53
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Are there bystanders dead as well ?

No. There are ~20 injured though.

It wasnt an assasination per se this time. This was a Hamas cell that fired a rocket on Sderot earlier today and there was a hunt after them until the car they were using was somehow located and bombed.

	14-06-2003 00:03									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: I wish Israel the best of luck in hunting and killing Hamas!

violence causes violence. in the worst case, Isreal will need to kill 3 million Palestines in order to get rid of the Hamas problem. not including those who arenīt born yet.

	14-06-2003 00:31									#55
	Remove this text

in the best case, the violence will end tommorow.

	15-06-2003 04:45									#56
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: However, you have to know that the Hamas will keep reviving no matter how many times you destroy it, if the huge bulk of the Palestinians continues to hate you.

Great solution

1. We bomb and attack Hamas.
2. Create more aplestinain hate.
3. More palestinians join Hamas.
4. repeat until no palestinians left to join hamas

[/cyncism]

quote: But the fact is that in 1996, the PLA could show some amount of benefit to its supporters, and even though they cracked down, it wasn;t some killing spree, people were sent to jail.

they can still show benefit: the moment they begin planning to seriously arrest hamas militants, Israel will begin leaving. Our intelligence is very good.

And they do have enough jails. If they want more, they could build more. They have enough money to rebuild Arafat's chambers for now 10 times in a row.

quote: if you have a probem with housing, or food, whom do you go to? The PLA, or Hamas? (answer, Hamas). The only way the PLA can counter this is by showing that supporting them means a better life than supporting Hamas,. but they can;t do so, not yet.

WRONG

The PA can counter this. And always could. They just never have for two reasons.

1. They are very very very very very corrupted.
2. They intended for Hamas and Jihad to take root.

And if you have any question about the role intended for Hamas in palestinain society by Arafat, just take a look at palestinian text books calling for martyrs and suicide bombers. Look at TV shows calling for martyrs and suciide bombers.

Look at the fact that Arafat called streets and made public holidays after killed Hamas engineer Ihia Ayash, who was responsible for hundreds of dead Israelis. And this was way in the middle of the 90s.

	15-06-2003 04:50									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: 2. They intended for Hamas and Jihad to take root.

I am sorry Siro, but this is just silly. Oh yes, the Socialists aethists of the PLO and its offshoots wanted to foster muslim extremists who hate their ideology just a bit less than they hate the Israelis...

Israel did more to foster these groups in the 1980's than the PLO and PLA ever did at any time.

You are right that the PLA was corrupt, which only scoeres higher points for Hamas (hey look how non-corrupt they are, compared to the PLA!)

quote: Look at the fact that Arafat called streets and made public holidays after killed Hamas engineer Ihia Ayash, who was responsible for hundreds of dead Israelis. And this was way in the middle of the 90s.

Its called pandering to the public for political gains. As for calling for Martyrs, that is something the PLA coopted from the Islamist since they saw it resonated with the public.

	15-06-2003 05:12									#58
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: I am sorry Siro, but this is just silly. Oh yes, the Socialists aethists of the PLO and its offshoots wanted to foster muslim extremists who hate their ideology just a bit less than they hate the Israelis...

You put waay to much wieght to the ideals of the PLO and it's off-shoots.

The only ideal they remain close to is that of one united Palestine. Arafat and gang will not overlook any means of abusing and disintegrating Israeli society.

quote: Israel did more to foster these groups in the 1980's than the PLO and PLA ever did at any time.

Excuse me, but I brought solid facts proving PA actions to foster Hamas and PIJ in the palestinian society.

You have brought your opinion, your speculation about Israeli actions and... 0 evidence.

quote: You are right that the PLA was corrupt, which only scoeres higher points for Hamas (hey look how non-corrupt they are, compared to the PLA!)

Yes.

But you choose to ignore, totally because of your rown prejudice, the the major role of PA in promoting Hamas and PIJ.

quote: Its called pandering to the public for political gains. As for calling for Martyrs, that is something the PLA coopted from the Islamist since they saw it resonated with the public.

This is completely idiotic.

Pandering the public, would be saying that it was an illegal action by Israel. Him aligning himself with a Hamas militant proves they are both on the same side of the scale. The moment PA calls for martyrs it is exactly as bad as Hamas, and ideally should be treated exactly the same.


There is absolutely no proof for Hamas resonating in public, in 1993. Hamas had something around 10% support in the Palestinian public in 1993.

Thus in 1995, Arafat was absolutely udner no obligation for public interests to hail the hamas leader. Infact, the absolute majority of palestinains in 1995 were probably against Hamas.

It was only in 2001 that Hamas popularity grew so much. And that was mainly the result of 7 years of brainwashing in school and media.

You (and a bunch of western analytics) continually confuse the reason and the outcome.

Do you know that religious leaders of Hamas was practically invited to give speeches in university campus? Were broadcast live on public TV? (on the only palestinian channel?)

If you want to compare, it would be like Israel would invite Baruch Goldstein to give public speeches, and call streets after him.

Can you imagine that hapenning under a government that is anything but supportive of terrorist activities?

	15-06-2003 05:18									#59
	Suffering from ads?

Imagine the US govt. began promoting anti-gay policies, and begin depicting gays as sons of lucifer, and then justifying it on "pandering the public for political gain".

	15-06-2003 05:28									#60
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov You put waay to much wieght to the ideals of the PLO and it's off-shoots. The only ideal they remain close to is that of one united Palestine. Arafat and gang will not overlook any means of abusing and disintegrating Israeli society.

And you don;t put enough stock in them. Hamas and these grousp grew in the 1980's. By 1993 they were already politically powerful. they came about pre PLA, not post.

quote: Excuse me, but I brought solid facts proving PA actions to foster Hamas and PIJ in the palestinian society. You have brought your opinion, your speculation about Israeli actions and... 0 evidence.

Read up on Israel and Hamas (and Islamist in general) in the 1980's. Islamist hated Socialist, the PLO was socialist, Israel saw the PLO as the great threat, while the islamists had done squat terrorism in the territories, so dpon;t get too much int he way of an anti PLO faction within the Palestinians. Thank the Likud in the 80's for that. But you can thank Rabin for then exiling lots of their leadership in Lebanon when the Israeli foudn out that woops, Hamas may hate the PLO but they still hate Israel more..... (you know, sort of like the US and Osama when communism was the "common enemy". )

quote: But you choose to ignore, totally because of your ownprejudice, the the major role of PA in promoting Hamas and PIJ.

Not taking action against, and fostering are two distinct things.

quote: Pandering the public, would be saying that it was an illegal action by Israel. Him aligning himself with a Hamas militant proves they are both on the same side of the scale. The moment PA calls for martyrs it is exactly as bad as Hamas, and ideally should be treated exactly the same. There is absolutely no proof for Hamas resonating in public, in 1993. Hamas had something around 10% support in the Palestinian public in 1993.

And why would Hamas be that popular in 1993? What had they done? But as time passed, they could position themselves as the ones resiting th Oslo process and "concessions to the Zionists", as well, as the alternative to the corruption of Arafat and his boys. The islamist always do so, they use the corruptness fo the non-religious leaders to point to why "they are better"

quote: Thus in 1995, Arafat was absolutely udner no obligation for public interests to hail the hamas leader. Infact, the absolute majority of palestinains in 1995 were probably against Hamas. It was only in 2001 that Hamas popularity grew so much. And that was mainly the result of 7 years of brainwashing in school and media.

Yes, and 1995 was before Likud took over (1996) and Oslo begun to slow down. Much changed between 1995 and 2000. as for branwashing by the mdeia and schools: Obviosuly the Pal schools, both those run by the PLA and Hamas have very incendiary materials and stridenyl anti-zionist (and poerhaps also anti-semitic) materials. BUt you, like so many Israelis, seem so readily inclined to believe that the daily experiences of the pals simply could not lead them to hate israelis even without the textbooks. And I find that just silly. People are smart enough to be able to see the difference between real life and books, and if books. If Pal lives and their realtions with Israel and Israelis had been inporving without end in the 1990's then all the textbooks in the world would not have done it.

quote: You (and a bunch of western analytics) continually confuse the reason and the outcome. Do you know that religious leaders of Hamas was practically invited to give speeches in university campus? Were broadcast live on public TV? (on the only palestinian channel?) If you want to compare, it would be like Israel would invite Baruch Goldstein to give public speeches, and call streets after him. Can you imagine that hapenning under a government that is anything but supportive of terrorist activities?

Support for terrorism and support for a politically rival org are two different things, two very different things that you do not seperate, but should be separated. Plus you ignore the fact that Hamas is not only a terrorist organization but a political party and movement.