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Adalbertus
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Cologne, Germany
Feb 2001
time: 06:28
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I've a question to Polish posters (I hope there are some around who can answer this). In 1945, several million Germans were expelled from the areas east of the Oder/Odra. To what I have heard (history lessons and private talks) it worked mostly in the way "You've got the choice to leave your home or to become Polish", and so most fled, partly of fear of the red army, also. As I've heard, German language and culture was banned from public life until the end of communism. It became better now, we were on a concert tour for the German minority twice, there are cultural agents for the German minority etc.
So, there was a quite empty land which had to be filled with people. Now Stalin (who was quite good ad executing Hitler's ideas) took his part of Poland, which now belongs to Belorus. So my questions:
Were it mostly Polish from this region, who moved westwards? If so, by what sort of motivation? Who else went there?
I'd especially like if there are some who could contribute from their family's experience (please specify).
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Adalbertus
I've a question to Polish posters (I hope there are some around who can answer this). In 1945, several million Germans were expelled from the areas east of the Oder/Odra. |
Yes, but many of You don't realise that evacuation of Germans were started by nazis already, and most fled in fear from approaching soviet army. I think there were 2 or three millions left.
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To what I have heard (history lessons and private talks) it worked mostly in the way "You've got the choice to leave your home or to become Polish",
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That's not quite true. Yesterday I watched a documentary about German noblist, mr Haptman or so,
who stayed in Hirschberg/Jelenia Góra, despite his rather anti-Polish approach. Also, a friend of mine told me a story that her German grandma decided to stay as she believed that German armies will soon reconquer it all and move all those Poles out.
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and so most fled, partly of fear of the red army, also. As I've heard, German language and culture was banned from public life until the end of communism.
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It depends from the region. The worse situatuation was where there was a Polish minority in Germany before the war, as the communist state, trying to gain some sympathy, played on the national tune, and there was the policy of repolonisation. How did it look? I've heard that f.e. police was entering the house and taking away salt thing if it had a sign in German or so... pretty silly and scary. In return, many Silesians and Masures felt allienated, and anyway, they could find a better job in Germany. In Silesian dialect, there are a lot of German
words - in technical or official matters, and it seemed it wasn't well perceived. People hated Germans after the war, and they were seen as Germans.
Today, most of German minority are people whose grandparents thought of themselves as Poles, and many even fought in Polish Silesian uprisings.
Except for that, there were some other, worse things.
there was a case of a concentration camp where the former prisoners, Jews and Poles, took revenge on Germans, and a case of Łambinowice camp, in which many Germans were killed by sadistic leader of it. He was later moved away and charged, but He lives up today.
Nothing to match what I heard about Germans who stayed in Królewiec/Koenigsberg/Kaliningrad area, though.
It were the stalinistic times, later it was much better I guess, we were friends with DDR and stuff...
When it comes to moving Germans out, it wasn't Polish idea. In fact, I read that Polish Prime Minister of London gouverment, was it Arciszewski, had some doubts towards including Lower Silesia into Poland, as, he claimed, assimilation of such a great number of Germans is doubtful. The expulsion of Germans was, unlike Czech example, settled by Allies.
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It became better now, we were on a concert tour for the German minority twice, there are cultural agents for the German minority etc.
So, there was a quite empty land which had to be filled with people. Now Stalin (who was quite good ad executing Hitler's ideas) took his part of Poland, which now belongs to Belorus.
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And Lithuania, and Ukraine.
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So my questions:
Were it mostly Polish from this region, who moved westwards?
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In fact, no. Most of people who moved into the western regions were ones from central part of Poland. Even Wrocław/Breslau, which is supposed to be new Lwów (today Lwiw in Ukraine) was only in 1/3 inhabited by former Lwowians. There were some cities that were mostly inhabited by people from behind the Bug river, though. People from the East settled elsewhere, not only in the West.
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If so, by what sort of motivation?
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Many didn't have a choice.
After 1939, Stalin decided to clean the former Polish lands of Poles. They were moved to inner Russia, to Kazakhstan. Many died, many live there up to today.
Of course, they wished to return to Poland, and tried to -not all succeeded.
There were also actions of mass "repatriations".
I must add that Poles were the richer classes in the east and were object of soviet propaganda for a long time. Except for that, there was the ukrainian case.
Ukrainians, as enemies to both Poles and USSR, tried to fight for their state in alliance with Germans. In Wołyń region, some of their militia commited mass murders on local Poles. Many were afraid to live there. But I'll tell You a story that I remember from an interview with a guy who was responsible for deciding who will be allowed to stay from the Germans. It was in my city I think, and the train with people from the east came.
A women started screaming, and it turned out that she saw amongst them an Ukrainian who was amongst the ones who were murdering her village. He tried to run away, but people killed him on the place. He didn't like to live in USSR as well...
Another thing is so-called szabrownicy. These were people who came to the west to enrich themselves on cost of local people or infrastructure. There was a chaos in Poland and no-one could stop them, especially that Soviet soldiers were doing the same. In my city, the first Polish president of it after the war, was a communist who was brought here as a compulsory worker for Germany (my city, Gliwice/Gleiwitz, was one of the most Germanised cities around, before the war there was no more than 1/4 Poles in it, though they were definite majority in all the villages and minor cities around). His name was Gruszczyński or so. He had problems with people robbing the houses, and once, when He heard a scream, He ran there with a gun. The robber, a Russian soldier, shot in the same time, and they were both dead... Soviet army was very angry.
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Who else went there?
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People from central Poland, and people from western Europe who were convinced by the gouverment to come back.
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I'd especially like if there are some who could contribute from their family's experience (please specify). |
Two of my granparents come of modern Ukraine.
Granpa died when I wasn't borned yet, and grandma died when I was 11. What I remember is that they lived in cities named Czortków and Zamoszczyki. Zamoszczyki were in fact one of the first villages that were occupied by USSR in 1939. The later story of her is blury for me. I tried to reconstruct it, but... It seemed she was supposed to be moved East, but the train broke, or did she ran away. Still, the conditions were bad, and up to the death she had problems with her legs because of that time. It was very cold. After the war, she was let to go to Poland after she proved she is a Pole, and stayed in my city. I remember also some blury thing about her sister. She seemed to own something in the east,
and we are still supposed to get compensation for that, as she had to leave all hers in Ukraine; Poland was forced after the war to sign a treaty with three Soviet republics, according to which all compensates should be payed by... Poland.
When it comes to my grandpa, He was Armenian by root, and had not quite Polish look, many took him for a Jew, so He had to get special papers for not being a one. His two sons were killed as babies, and his house was destroyed. After the war, He didn't want any compensation, as He believed He would return to his lands once. I think He stopped in our city, as most of people from those areas and his family seem to have stopped here and around. Some stayed in Ukraine, but I have absolutely no contact with them. Gliwice is today the biggest Polish-Armenian community in Poland, and the holy icon of Virgin Mary, to which people from all his region were pilgrimaging to is here in the Armenian church.
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Bas
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Out of step
Jan 1970
time: 06:28
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This has absolutely nothing to do with the question Adalbertus asked, but since it's meant for people familiar with Poland as well, I'll ask it here anyway.
Okay, next year I'm supposed to be organizing a foreign excursion for a group of about 20 technical/applied physics students, and the idea is to go to Poland. This should include several visits to companies, research institutes, etcetera that are relevant academically. I've tried looking around on the net a bit, and although the universities are easy enough to find, I haven't found any interesting companies so far. So, the question is, can anyone give some names of companies or research institutes located in Poland that do stuff that's interesting for (applied) physicists?
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:28
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the lyrics in yiddish (transliterated)
Vilne, shtot fun gayst un tmimes
Vilne yiddishlekh fartrakht,
Vu es murmlen shtile tfiles,
Shtile soydes fun der nakht.
Oft mol ze ikh dir in kholem,
Heys gelibte vilne mayn,
U di alte vilner geto
In a nepldikn shayn.
Vilne, vilne, undzer heymshtot,
Undzer benkshaft un bager.
Akh, vi oft es ruft dayn nomen
Fun mayn oyg aroys a trer.
Vilner geslekh, vilner taykhn,
Vilner velder, barg un tol.
Epes noyet, epes benkt zikh
Nokh di tsaytn fun amol.
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuŕ Rénmín Gňnghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:28
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is it true that almost 100% of the Breslau/Wroclaw (sp excused) were exchanged during those days?
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Saras
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Wolfsons lyrics to "Vilna"
Vilna: city of spirit and innocence. Vilna: conceived in Jewish ways, where prayers murmured soft nocturnal secrets. I often see you in my dreams, my dearly beloved Vilna: the old Vilna ghetto in a foggy glow. Vilna: our hometown, our longing and desire. How often your name brings a tear to my eye! Vilna streets, rivers, forests, mountains and valleys...Something gnaws at me, makes me yearn for days of long ago. I see the Zakret forest, enveloped in its shadows, where teachers secretly slaked our thirst for knowledge. Vilna sewed the first thread in our flag of freedom and inspired its children with a gentle spirit. |
Nice! Is that a Litvak song?
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Bas
This has absolutely nothing to do with the question Adalbertus asked, but since it's meant for people familiar with Poland as well, I'll ask it here anyway.
Okay, next year I'm supposed to be organizing a foreign excursion for a group of about 20 technical/applied physics students, and the idea is to go to Poland. This should include several visits to companies, research institutes, etcetera that are relevant academically. I've tried looking around on the net a bit, and although the universities are easy enough to find, I haven't found any interesting companies so far. So, the question is, can anyone give some names of companies or research institutes located in Poland that do stuff that's interesting for (applied) physicists? |
Blast. I was going to say Elsat... but it appears that they have vanished.
They do have a contact email though on what's left of their website (elsat.co.pl) so I suggest you try that and see if you get any leads.
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Saras
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Bas
This has absolutely nothing to do with the question Adalbertus asked, but since it's meant for people familiar with Poland as well, I'll ask it here anyway.
Okay, next year I'm supposed to be organizing a foreign excursion for a group of about 20 technical/applied physics students, and the idea is to go to Poland. This should include several visits to companies, research institutes, etcetera that are relevant academically. I've tried looking around on the net a bit, and although the universities are easy enough to find, I haven't found any interesting companies so far. So, the question is, can anyone give some names of companies or research institutes located in Poland that do stuff that's interesting for (applied) physicists? |
I'll do a shameless plug and say that you should come to Lithuania 
http://www.lasercenter.vu.lt/
and their commercialised brethren:
www.ekspla.com
www.eksma.lt
http://www.geola.com/
http://www.optida.lt/
http://www.lightcon.com/
We're a nation of laser freaks
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuŕ Rénmín Gňnghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:28
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that border between German and Polish ethnic majorities / states had existed since the middle ages, BTW... only got corrupted shortly, from 1773 to 1919...
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:28
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quote:
You mean the historical capital city of Lithuania which you illegally annxed? I thought we were over this stupid notion.
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Lithuanian rule over it wasn't legal;
it was earlier in Polish hands, after it was captured by Soviets, who handed it over to Lithuanians, despite they were a marginal minority both in the city and almost all the other disputed areas.
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I wont dispute the legality - apparently under League of Nations rules a city that was an ethnic island was supposed to go with the surrounding rural areas - which in the case of vilna/Vilnius was lithuanian.
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You're wrong here; unlike in Lwow case, all the surrounding of the disputed city was Polish as well, and, unlike it, stayed like this up to today; recently, Polish party won elections in some surrounding areas.
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anti-semitism widespread among many Polish nationalists
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That's a matter of discussion
Yes; it seems that not as far as in XIX century, the surrounding villages were Polish, but shortly before the war, Poles were a small minority (1 or 2% or even less);
there were a lot Polish students of the University, though (a third of all), before Poles were forbidden studying there by German authorities.
You know, some time after the war, as another reason for Polish rule over the city, a book of phones of the city from before the war was exhibited; the people in it were Germans of course, but over 2/3 of them had Polish-rooted surnames.
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that border between German and Polish ethnic majorities / states had existed since the middle ages, BTW... only got corrupted shortly, from 1773 to 1919...
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That's not quite truth; there's a big difference between state border and majority border; Germans speech was moving on and on, but not that rapidly.
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Since jews from lithuania are called Litvaks, yes
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I believe that Litvaks were Russian-speaking Jews who settled on former Polish (mostly ducal Lithuania) groundsafter being expelled from Russia?
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12-06-2003 23:54
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