13-06-2003 04:02									#31
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The Transfer system is the essence of what football is about - tweaking with it is ruining the game.
Football is not something where logic is applicable - those who try and apply logic to football fail.
And Sheffield Wednesday- what a joke, i've enjoyed going to Hillsborough to see the MILLERS beat them the last two years in a row!! - there is another example of a club who tries to spend to do well, and fails!!

	13-06-2003 05:11									#32
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quote: You can't compare the big US sports to Football (nearly typed Soccer!) when assesing (sp) why teams are dominant, we have no changing draft pick to compensate the losing teams, so the successful clubs tend to stay that way.

I think you can most of the time compare sports in terms of finance. I think all sports can learn from each other in that regard. Draft picks don't matter that much, as the finances. One thing that I have seen is that teams that don't have the money tend to be resentful of those that do. One can easily see that in what happened with the Scottish League, relating to Celtic and Glasgow Rangers.

quote: The Transfer system is the essence of what football is about

I thought the essense was kicking a ball on a pitch and trying to score as many goals as possible while denying it to the other side .

How can a financial system be the essense of a sport? Financial systems can always change the sport remain the same, so that argument is silly.

	13-06-2003 05:22									#33
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Imran,

but at least the side that finishes bottom in NFL (or whatever) has some leverage against the top teams, they can trade draft picks for players, one good pick for a couple of lesser picks etc. The bottom clubs in Football have no backup like that

	13-06-2003 05:24									#34
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quote: but at least the side that finishes bottom in NFL (or whatever) has some leverage against the top teams, they can trade draft picks for players, one good pick for a couple of lesser picks etc. The bottom clubs in Football have no backup like that

No, I agree. Totally... however, these smaller clubs can develop local talent, and do do so a lot of times. I have this strange feeling that the transfer system contributes to robbing these teams blind of their young talent, and they basically become farm teams to big moneyied teams while supposedly 'competing' against them.

	13-06-2003 05:33									#35
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To be honest Imran all the smaller clubs can hope for is to be well paid for their local talent. Even that is diminishing though, most of the big clubs have set up massive youth academies (to save on future transfer fees), thats where the kids want to go. Whereas a big club can take on 100 kids in the hope that 1 makes it, the little clubs can't gamble like that.

In an effort to help the small clubs,Theres a rule that any schoolboy on a clubs books must live within 50 miles (i think) of the clubs ground, it supposed to keep the young talent at their local clubs. Can you guess what the big clubs do to get around this.....? Yep, they buy the family a new house near their ground!

	13-06-2003 05:38									#36
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Yikes... see, I think that is a big problem. The smaller clubs haven't a chance. While before they did, nowadays, there is too much money involved. I mean, really is there any hope that a D3 team today will be in the Premiership in 50 years? Not with the youth camps, and the smaller teams having to sell their best players.

I just think its a bloody shame is all.

It reminds me (a bit) of baseball in the 1890s. In that case, it was different. You didn't have one big league structure, but rather many different minor leagues. First it was major league teams (which at the beginning weren't that much better than some of the best minor league teams) buying up talent from the smaller minor league clubs. Later it came to those teams buying up the minor teams... and now today, every major league team owns at least 3 other teams, and minor leagues are basically slaves to the majors.

And now the major leagues are turning their attention to Japan!

I fear that with the importance of money, it may not be too long before Europe heads this way. Hopefully, for the moment, there are rules that prevent multiple ownership of teams.

	13-06-2003 05:44									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel In spain you have strong teams in cities such as La Coruna, and Vigo, cities with much less than a million inhabitants. I am saying that you won't expect a team from ****sfordshire to win the Premier League title.

Madrid and Barcelona are the only two cities in Spain whose population is above one million which makes your statement kind of funny.

Historically the big trio of the La Liga is Real Madrid, Barcelona and Atletico Madrid with the occasional Valencia (country's 3rd largest city) good season.

Celta Vigo have never qualified for the Champions League and I don't remember them ever winning the championship which, until the Depor win, has been in Madrid/Barcelona for 10 years.

In England you've had Leeds Utd, Blackburn, Norwich & Newcastle going for it before the London comeback of Arsenal. Mind you - Birmingham's Aston Villa/Birmingham City have achieved exactly feck all inspite of the grim city's massive population, double than that of Liverpool & Manchester, the football capitals of England.


As for the transfer system - it was alright. New stuff is dodgy.

	13-06-2003 05:49									#38
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Yep, we have them, they're called 'feeder clubs' the big club gets first refusal on all the smaller clubs talent, right?

The youth camps are here to stay, if you can take on 100 kids a year for 5 years, and if during those years you get 1 kid that makes it and you can sell, the academy pays for itself until it produces a true superstar.

Thats all Liverpools (I'm a fan) is doing, Owen didn't go there but Steven Gerrard did, in the mean time it just keeps churning out players in their late-teens that arn't good enough to play for Liverpool but are good enough to sell to the lower teams for enough money to keep the academy going until the next Owen or Gerrard come along....it's a risk free venture!

	13-06-2003 05:54									#39
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quote: Yep, we have them, they're called 'feeder clubs' the big club gets first refusal on all the smaller clubs talent, right?

Sounds similar enough.. and very ominious for those feeder clubs.

quote: The youth camps are here to stay, if you can take on 100 kids a year for 5 years, and if during those years you get 1 kid that makes it and you can sell, the academy pays for itself until it produces a true superstar.

I'm not saying it isn't smart! I'm saying it might be bad for the game in the long run. How to curtail it... ehh... I'm not sure you can.

	13-06-2003 06:04									#40
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At the risk of sounding cynical, money talks, more so than ever in Football. the problem is (I think) where, years ago kids used to aspire (sp) to play for their local club, theres that much Football on TV these days, they want to play for a 'glamour' club, so they sign as schoolboys, even if they don't make it they can still be sold (maybe back to their local club!!) so the big club can poach some more youth.

	13-06-2003 06:20									#41
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The 2 things I would like to see is
1. Using more local/national players (to make sure of the continuity of the game (and local support and interest)

2. Players staying longer with any given club instead of changing 6 times a season.

	13-06-2003 13:47									#42
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quote: Originally posted by alva The 2 things I would like to see is 1. Using more local/national players (to make sure of the continuity of the game (and local support and interest)

We used to have a system to enforce this in England, but it was ruled illegal under European employment law. Blame Brussels.

	13-06-2003 13:58									#43
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"I mean, really is there any hope that a D3 team today will be in the Premiership in 50 years?"

Yes. Fulham moved from D3 to Premiership in less than 10 years. Man City were in the second division 3 or 4 seasons ago. Brighton moved from D3 to D1 in 2 seasons (although they then struggled). Plenty of examples of that.

	13-06-2003 14:05									#44
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Reading also moved from D2 to the brink of promotion to the Premiership in 2 years.

Although you can't expect a team like Hull or Carlisle to ever make it to the Premier League, it is still conceivable for many lower division clubs to work their way up over the course of a decade. It helps if they are from a big city: it wouldn't surprise me if Cardiff make the PL in the not-too-distant future, for example, and they've been knocking around the lower divisions for a long time.

	13-06-2003 14:07									#45
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Yeah, I know. I didn't want to mention Reading though.

	13-06-2003 14:10									#46
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isnt the road from failure to success through the "farm" system or wutever u call it over there. I not sure if soccer is like baseball in that who is gna be good later is very obscure. or like basketball where the phenoms are pretty identifiable. my guess is actually the latter which hurts the idea.

but u guys have so many nations playing u can't put it under one system like we can and put a cap on salaries and build a free agency market. so teams just communicate in the universal currency, money.

	13-06-2003 14:14									#47
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The youth systems are really important for English football. As someone said, the best players might go to the best clubs from there but these academies are still producing really good players who go to other clubs. Matthew Upson at Birmingham for instance.

	13-06-2003 14:17									#48
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yes but thats not exactly my point. my point is u go from bad to good by finding the good players and riding them up then uc an trade them for money. or what have you. a good farm system in baseball like the oakland A's can produce a great team w/o a big budget.

but I guess futball doesnt work like that.

	13-06-2003 14:21									#49
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Yeah, it does. The Posh (Peterborough United) have had a great youth system for years and have kept the club alive by sellling players on. A fair proportion of the current ManU first team is made of home grown players. Scholes, Beckham, Giggs, the two Nevilles, Brown etc.

Scholes, Beckham and Giggs would set you back what, £70 million?

	13-06-2003 14:24									#50
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Would people have been happier with yet another Real Madrid victory? Who needs that? (Well, Jay Bee would have liked to see it I suppose )

You supposed well, sire. Very, very well

	13-06-2003 15:07									#51
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The two things that are messing up the transfer system are the gulf in money terms between D1 and the Premier League and that players become free agents at the end of their contracts (Eurocrats ).

The gap in money means that some teams gamble on expensive players and salary bills to get into the PL or qualify for the Champions League but then have a big crisis if they don't make it. Losing out in the D1 playoffs can be a major disaster that a club can take years to recover from - often because their best players then leave for Premiership clubs.

No transfer fee at the end of contracts means it is in a clubs interest to sell a big name player part way through his contract so there is an artificially high turnover of top players. This means a lot of money circulating in the Premiership with a bit trickling down to D1 but not that much getting down to the lower division clubs, unlike perhaps 10 or 15 years ago.

I don't think there is an easy way to go back to how it used to be, or even if that is a good idea. What might be an idea would be to levy a percentage amount on the sale of players from all clubs and spread that money down to the smaller clubs.

	13-06-2003 15:22									#52
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Why shouldn't footballers have exactly the same freedom of employment as everyone else?

What would you say if you weren't allowed to leave your current job for a better one/location move whatever until your boss agreed that they'd let you go?

	13-06-2003 15:29									#53
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That's just a freedom they lose for the enormous amounts of cash they get.

	13-06-2003 17:59									#54
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quote: We used to have a system to enforce this in England, but it was ruled illegal under European employment law. Blame Brussels.

And it started with a Belgian calle Bosman...

In fact British clubs were scr*wed twice on this one.
Before you could have Scottisch, Welsh..etc players in english teams (more then 3 ), then Fifa or UEFA decided that was irregular and that they should be considered as foreigners.
Just when you made the transitition, suddenly you could have players from the whole Europe.

Still, some kind of gentlemens agreement would be nice and good for long-term (survival/growth of football). Not that it is going to happen of course.
(And with Italian and Spanish countries handing out passports to South-American players it is becoming a joke IMO)

Like Leeds, we had one or two teams here featuring no belgians anymore (something like 9 africans and 3 east-europeans were fielded.)

	13-06-2003 18:04									#55
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I knew it was Bossman's fault.

	13-06-2003 18:34									#56
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quote: Yes. Fulham moved from D3 to Premiership in less than 10 years. Man City were in the second division 3 or 4 seasons ago. Brighton moved from D3 to D1 in 2 seasons (although they then struggled). Plenty of examples of that.

You forgot to Include Rotherham who also moved from Division 3 to Division 1 in 2 seasons, and STAYED there, Last season we finished only about 10 points off the playoffs (in fact we were top at one point!) and therefore went close to the final promotion, that would have been 3 promotions in 4 seasons, so it's possible, although very unlikely.

Sorry I didnt explain my thoughts very well Imran but the Transfer system is(or was) a very exciting part of our game, off the field transfer talk in football can sometimes be as exciting as on the field action

	13-06-2003 18:38									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Worthingtons the Transfer system is(or was) a very exciting part of our game, off the field transfer talk in football can sometimes be as exciting as on the field action

The same is true in Baseball. Changing to a system of trades instead of purchases wouldn't remove this excitement.

	13-06-2003 18:58									#58
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It would for Smaller Clubs FP, since the excitment would involve our best players handing in 1 month's notice to move to some bigger club, maybe sometimes there'd be a compensation fee involved.

	13-06-2003 19:08									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Worthingtons It would for Smaller Clubs FP, since the excitment would involve our best players handing in 1 month's notice to move to some bigger club, maybe sometimes there'd be a compensation fee involved.

Perhaps, but you'd still be able to sit in the pub with your mates and talk all night about "If our team traded player X to team Y for players Z and Q then we could strengthen our shakey defence"
That's not much different from saying "If we sell player X for ?? million pounds then we might be able to bring in players Z and Q with that money, which would really help us out".

	13-06-2003 19:47									#60
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But since football (or soccer) has a world wide market, and the items of trade are actually living people. It would be very hard to arrange for trades between countries, or are players just supposed to move to african, south american, asian and european countries whenever the clubs tell them to?

Players do that now but they are sold separately and no exchange of players is needed. Then again you could just close the foreign market.