13-06-2003 01:25									#1
	Soccer Fans: Is the transfer system flawed? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

For all non soccer fans (at least not European soccer fans), players switch teams usually by their original team trading them straight up for money. The team can then use this money to buy others. This is vastly different from the 'American system' where players and traded for players (though nothing forces this... seems to be cultural).

Now, it seems to me that teams that are on top now, like ManU, Arsenal, etc. will be on top for decades to come? Why? Because the money they make, and since players are usually bought and sold for money, only the rich teams can afford the best (or even the above average, because they can highball other teams bidding for that player)... then again this is also a problem in some American sports (like baseball). These teams can go to lower level teams who find a star, and offer them an immense amount of money, which these lower level teams would be foolish to accept.

So is this system flawed? I think in someways it is. Of course the next question is what is the solution. That I don't know. Perhaps an American style salary cap?

	13-06-2003 01:30									#2
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I don't think it is. The two nations where the transfer system is most "exaggerated" are the two nations that provide the best (most talented as well as most exciting) football; England and Spain.

And if you think money buys success, look at Leeds.

And I remember seeing that if you adjust for football-inflation (runs at about 25%), Man Utd are actually not that high spenders.

	13-06-2003 01:31									#3
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The salary isn't the problem, the transfer fees are, that are paid from one club to another. Its a mondern slave trade, with very valuable slaves. This system is also the only way many smaller clubs can stay in business, by training teenagers and then selling them on to the big clubs for a few million Euros, when they turn out to be rather good players.

Keep the system.

-Jam

	13-06-2003 01:32									#4
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Salary cap? Are you a socialist?

The above is partly why I like Welsh football so much. Sure it may not be a great standard, but it's not run by money at all (er, once you get outside the top two.)

The true football fan doesn't get snobbish about the quality of football he is watching. He cares for the game, for the players who provide the passion, the commitment, travelling 120 miles week-in, week-out for little more than travelling expenses.

Now that is football.

Still, doesn't stop me supporting Man Utd.

	13-06-2003 01:33									#5
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quote: This system is also the only way many smaller clubs can stay in business, by training teenagers and then selling them on to the big clubs for a few million Euros, when they turn out to be rather good players.

That means these smaller clubs won't ever be good then, right?

	13-06-2003 01:34									#6
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quote: Salary cap? Are you a socialist?

There is nothing socialist about providing a maximum amount of dollars spent by each different franchise of one business.

	13-06-2003 01:36									#7
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quote: That means these smaller clubs won't ever be good then, right?

There's a certain "glass ceiling" that some small clubs endure, but don't forget that for clubs in Division 1,l getting to the Premiership is like getting into the Champions League for a Premiership side. Getting into Div2 for a Div3 side just like a Div2 side getting to Div1.

Success is relative - sure it's hard to see big clubs falling from grace, but remember that in 1991, Manchester City were the fifth best team in the land after around ten games. A decade later and they were languishing in the Second Division.

This argument almost has parallels with economic income inequality...

	13-06-2003 01:41									#8
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In the USA different leagues, it's always the big city teams that will do well, as well.

In any case, the USA system is totally different, with "franchises", which means that some rich dude wanted to form a team, and did it. In Europe, and here as well, there is a tradition of "clubs", nebulous organizations for which profit is not always the goal.

	13-06-2003 01:41									#9
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quote: That means these smaller clubs won't ever be good then, right?

They just have more realistic goals than winning the Champions Leauge, shall we say.

-Jam

	13-06-2003 01:43									#10
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quote: In the USA different leagues, it's always the big city teams that will do well, as well.

Tampa is a big city team They just won the Superbowl... New Jersey is a big city team? They just won the Stanley Cup.

The only place where that statement may apply is in baseball, where big money teams usually do win.

quote: the USA system is totally different, with "franchises", which means that some rich dude wanted to form a team, and did it.

Agreed that the US system is different... but just because some rich dude wanted to form a team, doesn't mean he gets to . The league gets to decide when and where a franchise pops up.

	13-06-2003 01:48									#11
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There's clubs in England and Germany that have been playing professional football for more than 100 years, through two world wars and have never won anything, not even made it to the first division, and people STILL pay to watch them play every Saturday. The small clubs never have had the best players, or even a chance of it, and they never will. And the fans seem to like it that way.

-Jam

	13-06-2003 01:49									#12
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Tampa and New Jersey are big city teams.

In spain you have strong teams in cities such as La Coruna, and Vigo, cities with much less than a million inhabitants.

I am saying that you won't expect a team from ****sfordshire to win the Premier League title.

The system here is fine. Now you got to answer for your shitty teams having no threat of relegation.

	13-06-2003 01:51									#13
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quote: Tampa and New Jersey are big city teams.

What are you nuts?

They are some of the smaller markets in the league.

quote: The system here is fine. Now you got to answer for your shitty teams having no threat of relegation.

Why should they? They pay millions simply to join. To have them relegated would be silly.

	13-06-2003 01:52									#14
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quote: What are you nuts? They are some of the smaller markets in the league.

As I said, smaller markets do well around europe as well.

	13-06-2003 01:52									#15
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Like and like, true love for a team does not change with number of leauge titles or cups. A team with historically strong support will most likely stay that way no matter what, the ones who leave are not real supporters anyway.

	13-06-2003 01:52									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski There's clubs in England and Germany that have been playing professional football for more than 100 years, through two world wars and have never won anything, not even made it to the first division, and people STILL pay to watch them play every Saturday. The small clubs never have had the best players, or even a chance of it, and they never will. And the fans seem to like it that way. -Jam

That way there's always room for improvement.

	13-06-2003 01:59									#17
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Is it me or lately bristish football has been even better than the spanish one? A lot of people told me that, What british team should I support?

I dont have problems with the transfer system, here we get to see very good football because of the high prizes europeans teams pay, River Plate or Boca Juniors or Corinthians only need to sell one player per year, the money they get is enough to pay for almost all their expenses.

	13-06-2003 02:00									#18
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"What british team should I support?"

Support the Wales national side.

	13-06-2003 02:03									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Plan Austral Is it me or lately bristish football has been even better than the spanish one? A lot of people told me that, What british team should I support?

Sheffield Wednesday, definitely.

	13-06-2003 02:11									#20
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quote: Is it me or lately bristish football has been even better than the spanish one? A lot of people told me that, What british team should I support?

Personally, I still think that the Spanish league is much better.

The Italians could have given the Spaniards a good fight, but alas, they're locked in a battle of crazy defensive BORING football.

	13-06-2003 02:13									#21
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PA: Back Newcastle (Agathon is pleased with Imran yet again ).

	13-06-2003 02:15									#22
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Defensive football is not boring, its a thrilling art, can your team hold that one goal advantage just 20 minutes more, jut 10 minutes, your heart is in your mouth... just 5 minutes, BLOW THE DAMM WHISTLE ALREADY! Just 1 munute, NO! 4 minutes injury time to play...

Its dead exciting, and for the other side too, who get to attack over and over.

-Jam

	13-06-2003 02:22									#23
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Offensive football can have all that you've just described, just with the goals, great maneuvers and passes, and you know, the fun part.

Did you see the Final this year?

	13-06-2003 02:28									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Defensive football is not boring, its a thrilling art, can your team hold that one goal advantage just 20 minutes more, jut 10 minutes, your heart is in your mouth... just 5 minutes, BLOW THE DAMM WHISTLE ALREADY! Just 1 munute, NO! 4 minutes injury time to play... Its dead exciting, and for the other side too, who get to attack over and over. -Jam

playing sweeper up until my mid teens i must concur defensive football is much more fun...

	13-06-2003 02:35									#25
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quote: Did you see the Final this year?

Yes, and it was a real connessiour moment - a game for those that really understand how football is played.

-Jam

	13-06-2003 03:02									#26
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You can't compare the big US sports to Football (nearly typed Soccer!) when assesing (sp) why teams are dominant, we have no changing draft pick to compensate the losing teams, so the successful clubs tend to stay that way.

	13-06-2003 03:06									#27
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 playing sweeper up until my mid teens i must concur defensive football is much more fun...

Sweeper is a positiion for lazy old gits who have gotten too slow to play in centre midfield! It's like being put out to pasture

	13-06-2003 03:15									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Yes, and it was a real connessiour moment - a game for those that really understand how football is played. -Jam

I totally agree. It wasn't exactly edge-of-your-seat-excitement, but I found it to be very interesting game to watch. Any chance to watch a genius like Paolo Maldini at work is worth it.

Would people have been happier with yet another Real Madrid victory? Who needs that?
(Well, Jay Bee would have liked to see it I suppose )

	13-06-2003 03:18									#29
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FP - as so often these days, we are in total agreement

-Jam

	13-06-2003 03:30									#30
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet I totally agree. It wasn't exactly edge-of-your-seat-excitement, but I found it to be very interesting game to watch. Any chance to watch a genius like Paolo Maldini at work is worth it. Would people have been happier with yet another Real Madrid victory? Who needs that? (Well, Jay Bee would have liked to see it I suppose )

The first half was very entertaining and the first 10 minutes or so of the second half when Juve came back into it, but then to have to watch two teams who had 'given up' for the next hour spoilt it for me.

and yes, i can appreciate good defending, but it doesn't HAVE to be done at the expense of good attacking play, which it was in that last hour IMHO