13-06-2003 01:42									#1
	How to handle the greek? Put an end to popups!

The greek UU, the hoplite is a tough and cheap defender. The normal way of dealing with them is of course to bring enough attackers but in my current game I'm in the rare situation that the greek have not yet had their Golden Age, thus my first loss vs a hoplite will trigger it. So far I have managed to kill the hoplites with a combination of catapults and strong attackers in the open and armies against their cities. It works but it is painfully slow. The up-side is that all the fighting give me lots of leaders(8 or 9 so far). The down-side is that I have to stay in monarchy to avoid WW and eventually other civs(the russians) will catch up with me tech-wise.

So far there have been no intercontinental contact between the other civs and I want to finish the greeks off before they tell the world what a backstabbing bastard I am.

With 20/20 hindsight vision I should probably declared war to the greek in 1000BC and triggered their GA so I didn't have to worry about it now.

How do you deal with the greek? Force them to have an early despotic GA? Wait til their UU is to weak?

	13-06-2003 02:33									#2
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A combination depending on the map. If I am forced (ie no other neighbors to pick on, or only carthage) I will simply attack them early, with combinations of horses (yes, I know they are weaker, retreat works wonders, though) and swords. Catapults are great for in the open as well, but taking cities can be painfull, especially hills...

Otherwise, Ill just wait and pick on someone else, even allying with the Greeks, thus still generating their early GA, just at the expense of someone elses units

	13-06-2003 14:46									#3
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I recently abandoned a game after dealing with the Greeks. Monarch level and no fresh water so their cities could not grow above size 6.

I did them in with a strong bombardment force of 6 catapults and plenty of vet swords. It was made easier because they didn't have iron (I didn't have horses) and they failed to build barracks so the hoplites were only regulars. The catapults often miss so it requires patience and massing swordsmen so that when a couple of the catapults hit defenders you then attack with all available swords and overwhelm the defenders.

It is best to do this early so both you and they are in despotism. They will poprush defenders but sustained bombardment will keep their city sizes down and limit this.

I took four towns (and gained the Oracle and Colossus) and left them two small towns overseas by 50AD. I dropped the game because I was playing as the English (random civs) and really didn't fancy taking on my more powerful neighbours with such a difficult civ.

I would not hesitate to take on Greece at any stage of a game but Carthage is a much tougher challenge.

	14-06-2003 21:36									#4
	Put an end to popups!

An early annihilation war against the Greeks is tough, though doable. If I'm forced into an early war with them I'd almost prefer sending defensive units to hunker down in their territory and pillage and burn their improvements. Pretty soon they'll either be forced to attack your defensive units (preferably fortified on high ground if possible) or they won't be able to produce anything and fall into second class AI civ status.
I don't like sending hordes of units to die in a suicidal frontal attack. Sneaky is the order of the day.

	16-06-2003 20:23									#5
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HA! The best way to deal with the Greeks is the best way to deal with the Carthaginians as well: send them against each other. It can be difficult to do at times, but really, it's not so hard. Just start a war with one, harrass them (take workers, maybe hit a warrior here or there, and of course fight back against their archers) and BRIBE the other one to fight on your side. Now, try to stay out of harm's way and come to an early peace with the one you picked on. Let Carthage and Greece blow their GAs producing units to pound each other!

This can work out very nicely if you have Rome and Egypt along as well. The more the merrier. In a current game as the Aztecs, I've set Carthage and Greece against each other, Egypt against Carthage, Greece against Rome, and me against oscillating victims/agressors. Carthage and Greece could have grown to be big, scary empires, but by picking on the weakest and setting the potentially strongest against each other, I've set Carthage and Greece back for, well, the rest of the game.

Now, if this is NOT an option, what y'all have discussed above is good advice indeed. But why mass troops when some sucker - who you want to conquer eventually as well - can do it for you?

	16-06-2003 21:38									#6
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Ahh, the true subversive way. I like it and use it on occasion.

Just had a good thought for a new espionage tactic (probably for civ4)...use spys to sabotage relations between other countries without having to resort to going to war and pulling others in on your side.

Edit: Need to figure out a way for the AI to use the tactic too, or it would be too overpowered.

	16-06-2003 21:41									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill Ahh, the true subversive way. I like it and use it on occasion. Just had a good thought for a new espionage tactic (probably for civ4)...use spys to sabotage relations between other countries without having to resort to going to war and pulling others in on your side.

That would be a GREAT option, and one that's sorely missing... "provoke incident"... you could also do it to allow yourSELF to go to war, à la Pearl Harbor, Reichstag burning, etc. Wonderful!

	16-06-2003 21:48									#8
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It should be something that would be really expensive though. A lot of the espionage actions are too expensive for what they do, but this one SHOULD be expensive. But again, the AI should have a way to use it too or it's just another tool for the human player to get ahead.

	16-06-2003 21:52									#9
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The possibilities are endless, but I guess this is a topic for another thread.

	16-06-2003 22:01									#10
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True. It might have already been discussed in other threads as well. I haven't gone through all the "what do we want in the next expansion" threads.

	16-06-2003 22:03									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill True. It might have already been discussed in other threads as well. I haven't gone through all the "what do we want in the next expansion" threads.

Neither have I - talk is cheap. I just want to play the damn thing. Maybe if I was a programmer, I'd feel differently, but I think we're getting what we're getting, and why bother howling at the moon for things we want. Civ, as great as it is, cannot capture all the wonderful intricacies of history.

	16-06-2003 23:34									#12
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Rhothaerill & Yahweh , excellent advice. I'll write them down in my big book of 'nasty ways of handling the AI'

I eventually did them in in the same way I started. A large force of catapults to soften up the defenders and two armies (swordsmen and chinese riders) as nutcrackers. Slow'n nasty. When my catapults were upgraded to cannons and my riders were upgraded to cavalry the greek were dead meat. They still have some cities left but they are so small and weak that a GA won't matter anymore. I still haven't lost against a hoplite

Pitting the romans(no carthagians) against the greek would probably work very well but as I started on a peninsula with more mountains than himalaya and the romans blocked my way to the more promising parts of the continent they had to leave rather early.

	17-06-2003 06:15									#13
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The greeks have consistently be a major competitive threat in all my games. I don't know why but I almost always don't like them and they take the similar position.

I think if you have a tech lead the Greeks are a hard bunch to please as the AI see you as a threat and are more often than not, annoyed with you.

quote: Neither have I - talk is cheap. I just want to play the damn thing. Maybe if I was a programmer, I'd feel differently, but I think we're getting what we're getting, and why bother howling at the moon for things we want.

Well Yeweh , Soren is known to lurk in here and over a CivFanatics to read people's thoughts, exploits against the AI and implement fixes and or modifications to the AI along with a future patch. As long patches are coming, making suggestions will ultimately help Firaxis fine tune the game.

Also, Tavis, the producer of C3C asked the folks over at CivFantatics to put up a board for C3C for fans to discuss what they want to see.

I have no illusions about getting all the stuff on the wishlist in. But having no input is a long way from what we have now.

	17-06-2003 19:22									#14
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Point taken. Didn't mean to be nasty.

How about fixing Carthage a bit in one patch? Unless they get creamed in the early game, they are ALWAYS a MAJOR pain to deal with. Apparently they're supposed to build naval units and trade, but they always end up with massive land forces and huge, productive cities in my games, making them probably the only civilization that still gives me a run for my money at this point.

I guess I just don't like to see a Civ that died out in real life consistently turn out to be the #2 civ in all of my games, or at least the one that's the hardest to deal with.

	18-06-2003 09:33									#15
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Catapults are always your friend. Be sure to repay their kindness by giving them some action.

	18-06-2003 19:30									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Catapults are always your friend. Be sure to repay their kindness by giving them some action.

I just put a catapult to use for the first time in my current game. An American swordsman was attacking Washington, which I had just "liberated," over some hills. I had captured an American catapult and used it against the swordsman. It actually came in handy, imagine that.

	18-06-2003 21:54									#17
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Catapults are best used against units in the open, they can even be real effective. I'd say they are worth the money. But they are close to useless against cities, unless you bring them in large numbers.

	18-06-2003 23:04									#18
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How do I handle the geeks? Well, just take away their calculators. Oh wait, the Greeks!?! The ones with Hoplites? Well, I prefer Horses (and lots of them) followed by Swordsmen. Horses are such a good unit, it's fairly amazing what you can accomplish with them....

	18-06-2003 23:10									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by inca911 How do I handle the geeks? Well, just take away their calculators. Oh wait, the Greeks!?! The ones with Hoplites? Well, I prefer Horses (and lots of them) followed by Swordsmen. Horses are such a good unit, it's fairly amazing what you can accomplish with them....

...If you have a lot to throw away. Or maybe that's just me. I have exceptionally bad luck with horseman units in almost all my games. Throw 'em against a spearman...dead horseman. Throw 'em against a warrior...dead horseman. I still build a bunch of them though, because it's great to upgrade them to knights and take over the world.

As for catapults, I find myself not using bombard techniques much until cannons become available. I'm too busy trying to build attack and defense oriented units until that time to worry about too many catapults. They're great for upgrading to cannons if I have a few laying around though.

	21-06-2003 15:43									#20
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Normally, I much prefer not to fight the Greeks until I have at least knights and preferably cavalry. But in one of the AU games, I was stuck with Greece on an island with nowhere near enough room for two civs. My approach to taking them on was to build a lot of veteran warriors, connect iron and upgrade to swordsmen, and charge. By overwhelming them with numbers quickly (warriors are half as expensive as hoplites in terms of shields) and using vets to help offset their high defense value, I was able to take enough cities quickly enough that their golden age wasn't much of a factor.

From what I can figure, there are two problems with trying to use cats in an early offensive against the Greeks. First, a cat is worth two warriors in terms of production, which, with enough gold, could become two swordsmen. And second, once the Greeks' GA is triggered, the clock is ticking. If you wait for a turn where your cats do relatively well to attack, you may find yourself giving the Greeks some extra GA-powered time to build more hoplites. I'm skeptical about the chances that cats would provide enough advantage to make up for those factors, but I'll admit to not having much experience with cats.

	23-06-2003 20:25									#21
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It's always nice to have Carthage around to kick the Greeks. And vice versa.

	24-06-2003 14:22									#22
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nbarclay , make some catapults anyway. Their biggest advantage is that they will lower your losses by taking away some hp from attacking units in the open. Forget using them against cities with hoplites unless you have 3-4 catapults for each defender.

Seems like the best way of taking out the greeks is to ovewhelm them and finish them off so fast that their GA don't matter. Or the slow approach, get an army and use it as a nutcracker vs his cities. Use your other troops vs units in the open and to cut off reinforcements.

	25-06-2003 14:50									#23
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Against a stronger defender i don't see much alternative to just massing much larger #s of your best mobile unit, horsemen im guessing.

Throwing swordsmen into hoplites/NM defending cities never worked for me past Monarch.

My experience with using Hwachas and even those at bomb 12 seemed rather inefficient to me vs cities (although amazing out in the open). I can't imagine Catapults at bomb 6 performing well at all.

	25-06-2003 16:22									#24
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Ktaek, were you trying to compete with the Greeks/Carthaginians in production, or did you take advantage of the cost differential between 10-shield warriors and 20/30-shield hoplites/numidians to shift the production advantage in your favor (albeit at a price in gold)? Also, were your swords veteran? I've taken on Greece successfully with swords mostly upgraded from warriors on Emperor the one time I tried it, but one isn't exactly a statistically significant sample size.

	26-06-2003 22:10									#25
	Re: How to handle the greek? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

My bad, when I read the thread title I thought you were asking advice on how to deal with MarkG...............

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 27-06-2003 at 03:38

	27-06-2003 00:13									#26
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Better deal with him OUTSIDE this forum I guess. Bring some friends and meet him in a dark alley