13-06-2003 06:17									#1
	Ai Cheats Increase the size of your Attachments

THE AI IS A DAM CHEATER!!!!


I SAVED and RELOADED A GAMe. THIS TIME PLACING A UNIT ON A COASTAL CITY. AND BAM! HE TAKES THE CITY. THEN I RELOAD IT, PLACE THE MAN IN THE CITY AND AI PASSES IT BYE.



CHEATERS

	13-06-2003 06:51									#2
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How nice..

	13-06-2003 07:24									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I guess it takes a cheater to know a cheater

IMO, it is well known the AI offensive subsystems know where your units are. But its a neccessary evil, given it still struggles against humans even when it has this information.

	13-06-2003 08:11									#4
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Hi!

You can't complain about the cheating AI, when you cheat yourself. I think the AI is just trying to keep up with you!
Remember, you have a brain and can learn. The AI doesn't, it needs all the help it can get.

	13-06-2003 09:03									#5
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That is the one thing the AI gets to know. What the disposition of the map is and your personel.
So just like you, if is next to an empty city it will walk in and camp.
It has no other cheats and does not get any bonus until you go to at least Monarch level.
Since it is not hard to defeat the AI, you would not want to make it weaker, by removing those aids, would you?
I will presume you were only reloading as a test and not to gain an edge. In that case you are not a cheater.

	13-06-2003 10:10									#6
	Got spare money?

even if he was doing it for an edge, I dont see how it would be cheating. the game obviously lets you do it, it even automatically saves your last 5 turns...

	13-06-2003 10:37									#7
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Because reloads in general remove the randomness from the RNG, thereby predetermining the outcome, or making the game a test not of skill, but of perseverance (okay, I'll reload and try to plant that spy ONE MORE TIME BUT THAT'S IT!). This case in particular, the answer would be because it gives the player prescient knowledge of the AI's response to his move. The player's mistakes are a part of the game, and an inextricable part at that. Reloading when the AI exposes something the player overlooked artificially boosts the player's game performance.

That being said, it is a useful tool for testing AI behavior for future reference, and for going back a few turns before a critical decision and deciding to take your game on a markedly different path (one of the beauties of Civ) as a whole other game.

	13-06-2003 10:56									#8
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Actually, I must confess that I cheat all the time. If I see a city which is too well defended for me to capture with the forces to hand then I don't attack it. I reckon most players cheat like that.

	13-06-2003 10:59									#9
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Whether that's "cheating" or not depends on how you see the city, I guess. Nothing wrong with making smart moves based on gathered intelligence, but reloading to correct a mistake is like an offensive coordinator saying "Okay, now that we know they're blitzing the linebacker, we're ready to play that third down over again."

EDIT: My bad, Peter, I missed what you were saying when I responded. Now that it's clicked I'm on board with you. Investigate the city if possible and determine whether or not to attack.

	13-06-2003 11:10									#10
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"Because reloads in general remove the randomness from the RNG, thereby predetermining the outcome, or making the game a test not of skill, but of perseverance"

not if you turn on random seed... dang, just forgot term as i was typing, but i believe on the PTW editor you can have it be the same. anyone have the name of that?

	13-06-2003 11:14									#11
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Preserve Random Seed, and you're right, but I think you'll also find that those who reload the most generally despise preserving the seed .

	13-06-2003 11:47									#12
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In the game I am playing now, The Ottomons capital (I forget the name) built a wonder, 10 turns later it builds another.

I was surprised by this and so I had a look at his city, I found that he only produces 4 sheilds and he only has 4 cities.

So I know something went wrong there.

	13-06-2003 12:25									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Cheaters can get around the RNG being saved, after all the game originally had no other method.
They use to simply change the sequence of events to change the combat or if it was a hut, not open it on that turn.
These are all just means of giving yourself a boost and not legit.
Moving troops towards a city and seeing it looks too hard and not attacking is not the same as reloading to get another try. You used time to send them to that location. Attacking the city and losing the battle and reloading to either try again or not enter the battle at all is flat out cheating. You gained an advantage.
It does not matter about the preserve seed, if you do not reload to have another run at it.
Now if one wants to play that way and acknowledges that they do, have fun.
It is only when they want to compare out comes that it matters.

	13-06-2003 12:27									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Sn00py In the game I am playing now, The Ottomons capital (I forget the name) built a wonder, 10 turns later it builds another. I was surprised by this and so I had a look at his city, I found that he only produces 4 sheilds and he only has 4 cities. So I know something went wrong there.

One possiblity is that they got a leader or had one all along.
Unless you know that is not the case.

	13-06-2003 12:58									#15
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quote: Originally posted by peterfharris Actually, I must confess that I cheat all the time. If I see a city which is too well defended for me to capture with the forces to hand then I don't attack it. I reckon most players cheat like that.

I don't want to disappoint you, but I'm not the best Civver out there (Regent player and still too hesitant to promote myself to Monarch) but I do not reload.

I do keep backup files incase my save is lost and I plan on going back and writing after action reports which require me to look at my game at different stages of play. Other than that, if I make a mistake and and units are killed, a city falls or is razed, I suck it up and live with it.

	13-06-2003 13:55									#16
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DL?

Is this the same guy (please no)

	13-06-2003 16:32									#17
	Cheating??? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hey... is it cheating when you are pushing your cat off the top of your computer 'cause she hangs over the edge and bats at your hair while you're trying to play and she gets pissed off and jumps on your keyboard and runs out of the room and you look down to see she had landed on the enter button and ended your newly begun turn so you reload?

	13-06-2003 17:50									#18
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no

	13-06-2003 21:15									#19
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No, of course not. I would say there are several times where it would be ok, even though it does help you or may help you.
Since I may sit there for 10 hours, and you have a large map in the latter stages, it is easy too forget or over look something.
Example would be I intend to make a settler in a given city. I get a phone call and when I get back to the game , I forgot to do that. If have not gone far from that point, I may reload to start the settler or I may not.
The distinction (to me), is that I did not see the play and then decide to go back and make the settler. I was distracted. I see events like this, for interruptions for meals, bathroom, trips to this place or that. Crashes and many other occurences.
Same thing can happen, when you restart the game the next day or when ever you get to it. You forget what you intended, but you are not trying to gain an advantage. Reloading to change an outcome such as a combat or a flip is the type of thing that seems to me to be unethical.

	13-06-2003 21:28									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Good explanation, vmxa. I'll give one more scenario where I've reloaded with a clear conscience. Attacking a city in the modern age with a column of Marines covered by one of my "Elite Infantry" units (all helicoptered in). The EI unit is just what it sounds like, when I get Computers, I pull my elites get pulled out of cities and don't get upgraded, in order to provide a stiff defensive cover for airdropped stacks. Anyway, I attack with one Marine, then two, then three, then just get in the rhythm of sending them in and the fourth unit it gives me is... the Elite Infantry which I inadvertently send to attack, with its 6 attack value, a fortified Infantry in a city. I reloaded, recreated everything up to that point as faithfully as possible (including once again nearly wiping out a different column of Marines throwing them at Karachi), then made sure my fourth attacker was a Marine.

	13-06-2003 23:32									#21
	Re: Cheating??? Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by mimi Hey... is it cheating when you are pushing your cat off the top of your computer 'cause she hangs over the edge and bats at your hair while you're trying to play and she gets pissed off and jumps on your keyboard and runs out of the room and you look down to see she had landed on the enter button and ended your newly begun turn so you reload?

Now that sounds like my cat. She sleeps on my monitor while I play Civ. Not being too graceful a cat she occasionally falls off.
As to cheating, I confess that when I started playing this game I often saved and reloaded if something didn't go my way. Since I started frequenting 'Poly a year and a half ago I realized what that all I was doing was cheating myself out of part of the fun of the game. We play these games to challenge ourselves, and restarting after something bad is something I never do anymore. Unless my cat falls on my keyboard.

	13-06-2003 23:43									#22
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I may have restarted a game or two (dozen) when the land didn't turn out to be what I was looking for. I really shouldn't do this I suppose but... if I want to war monger I really get upset when I'm on a tiny island by myself... or when I'm playing baby for a peaceful game and end up starting squished 4 squares on either side by the Zulu and the Aztec. (Yep, really happened and you can imagine just how long I lasted after the zulu demanded their first tribute about 4 turns after meeting them. Me with my temples and granaries nicely built...)

And starting off separated from every other civ by 20 squares of jungle is also very annoying.

But it takes so much time to play a game, I hate to waste it on such an uphill battle.

	13-06-2003 23:52									#23
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I do start a new game if I discover a really bad set of circumstances to start the game (i.e. an ice island like Aeson's "So Very Cold" or Mimi's peacenik surrounded by early warmongers). I'm not quite up to challenging Aeson for the "Something From Nothing" title. Though maybe in the (far) future.