13-06-2003 07:56									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

"Fez, it was the same way w/Bush1. Clinton was and is a bit of fluff who couldn't have been worse. He rode an economy that was on its way up, and even he couldn't **** it up. He was a pretty boy for the feminist left and the gays, so they still have it on for him. Sure, there is nobody to run against Bush2, but last time, nobody did ok, because his constituants were so corrupted."

Damn right!

	13-06-2003 08:01									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Lancer "Fez, it was the same way w/Bush1. Clinton was and is a bit of fluff who couldn't have been worse. He rode an economy that was on its way up, and even he couldn't **** it up. He was a pretty boy for the feminist left and the gays, so they still have it on for him. Sure, there is nobody to run against Bush2, but last time, nobody did ok, because his constituants were so corrupted." Damn right!

You're cheering yourself on, or forgetting your DLs?

Considering Clinton's signing of DoMA and institution of DADT after a broken promise, your talking about gays is a little odd.

Do you propose that the 49% of voters who re-elected Clinton in 1996 were all gays and feminist leftists? Well, if only we had such power!

	13-06-2003 08:02									#33
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You're missing the point, Boris.

	13-06-2003 08:04									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Lancer You're missing the point, Boris.

Your point was erroneous, too. Happy now?

	13-06-2003 08:04									#35
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Lancer :
I sometimes wonder if your wife is behind the computer as well as you, and that's why you end up being that schyzophrenic on this forum, quoting yourself and stuff.

	13-06-2003 08:05									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Fez Fallacious? Just wait. I will bet my life on it that something will be found. Not literally, but figuratively speaking.

I'll be there to collect.

	13-06-2003 08:06									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Spiffor, sometimes I read what I write and get worked up and wanna say it again. Wierd? Well ok.

	13-06-2003 08:08									#38
	Got spare money?

I love it when MtG joins the fray. The facts fly and the **** hits the fan.

	13-06-2003 08:20									#39
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Chances are for most people if you weren't going to vote for him because of WoMD, you wouldn't vote for him anyways, but it's good to see you expect something out of our President.

	13-06-2003 08:22									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Fez I have gone over things carefully and thought about it. I do dismiss the claim that these weapons haven't existed. I am confident they do.

But why are you confident, with no actual material proof?

quote: You don't know if they haven't already found something nor do I as I am not there. That capture of 400 loyalists recently might even prove better. At least one or two will talk.

Until they show me, I will assume they are not there. If Bush really wanted to play good politics he'd show the weapons now to stem this tide of media interest in the whole situation. He's looking really dumb right now with no weapons to show; this can't be politically helpful. I don't think he can afford to keep them hidden any longer, if indeed he is hiding them from us.

	13-06-2003 08:26									#41
	Increase Your PM Length

A month before the war, Bush said we had firm intel that told us exactly where the WoMD were.

Months after the war, Bush says we'll find out where the WoMD are from some new dudes we captured.



Possibility 1:
They were destroyed. There was a short-lived media flurry about this a few weeks ago.

Possibility 2:
They weren't there. I think this is the subject of the current flurry.

	13-06-2003 08:28									#42
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 But why are you confident, with no actual material proof?

Well I am confident material proof will be found.

quote: Until they show me, I will assume they are not there. If Bush really wanted to play good politics he'd show the weapons now to stem this tide of media interest in the whole situation.

We will see.

quote: He's looking really dumb right now with no weapons to show; this can't be politically helpful. I don't think he can afford to keep them hidden any longer, if indeed he is hiding them from us.

I think if the US forces did find anything, these materials would have to undergo evaluation by the CIA and the info would be released in due time. I think.. well actually that is just my guess.

I just have this odd feeling there is something there.. that is all.

	13-06-2003 08:30									#43
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I'll be there to collect.

Best line all day.

quote: Originally posted by Lancer sometimes I read what I write and get worked up and wanna say it again. Wierd? Well ok.

Yes, it is wierd.

	13-06-2003 08:33									#44
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

"Yes, it is wierd."

Something very wrong with that guy.

	13-06-2003 08:35									#45
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Fez Well I am confident material proof will be found.

Welcome to circular logic-ville, population: You.

Why are you confident we will find something that hasn't been proven to exist in the first place?

quote: We will see.

Well, that's the truth.

quote: I just have this odd feeling there is something there.. that is all.

As long as you realize that's not logical, more power to you.

	13-06-2003 08:36									#46
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Lancer Something very wrong with that guy.

Who me?

	13-06-2003 08:37									#47
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Welcome to circular logic-ville, population: You. Why are you confident we will find something that hasn't been proven to exist in the first place?

Because I always been confident.. when I was coming out to my parents I was confident they would be accepting and they were.. when I got into a relationship I was confident they would be okay with it and they were...

So why not be confident about a international issue? I am hoping it will turn out like every other time I was confident.. my way.

quote: As long as you realize that's not logical, more power to you.

Just a hunch feeling I guess.. in that recent capture of nearly 400 loyalists...

	13-06-2003 08:38									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Lancer, I respected you before, and now I respect you even more. I still disagree with you, but I can not help but admire your backbone. The fact remains that Bush promised WMDs, but yet there are no WMDs to this day.

They did have WMDs for sure. But the question is, where are they now. I think the most important question is, if the WMDs have gone missing, at what point it happened. Has it been few years? If so, then the intelligence was not sufficient for attack for reasons being WMDs in the first place. It is worrying, that we lost the track of those WMDs. Now we need to carefully think, if we can claim that they are in Syria now for example and attack. What if they're not there anymore either? What if they never went to Syria? The Iraqi WMDs that is, maybe they have their own but that's not the point. Can we go around the world, attacking every country, because the WMDs have supposedly travelled there? If WMDs are not to be found, then it means intelligence failed miserably. If those are the facts and condition, I think we are not ready for any attacks. Not until we have SOLID information. It is very clear that even if there was intelligence information, it was not solid, because we would have found it already.
And the point is, gov promised WMDs, and we don't have them. Even if we were to find them in coming months, the intelligence information was weak. Too weak.

I still support 'liberating' Iraq, but for different reasons.

	13-06-2003 08:39									#49
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Wouldn't it be funny if the weapons of mass destruction turned out to be oil barrels filled with grain alcohol and grape juice? Yep, I've been to places where "purple jesus" was pretty much a weapon of mass destruction.

	13-06-2003 08:40									#50
	Support Apolyton

cyclotron, just a small joke, actually it's me... ok it's a tad silly...

I gotta go to work, later Poly.

	13-06-2003 08:40									#51
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Fez So why not be confident about a international issue? I am hoping it will turn out like every other time I was confident.. my way.

Well, have it your way then. I suppose hunches can't be argued with.

	13-06-2003 08:40									#52
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Lancer cyclotron, just a small joke, actually it's me... ok it's a tad silly... I gotta go to work, later Poly.

Hmmm, I'll think about that one.

'Bye, Lancer.

	13-06-2003 08:42									#53
	Increase Your PM Length

Pekka, sure, Iraq was good for Israel and I support Israel. If Bush had made the case on attacking Iraq to support our allies in Israel, it wouldn't have sold, sadly. Remember that...

	13-06-2003 08:44									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Kudos to Lance for sticking W to his words.

But don't forget Powell's list! Rest assured though the Dems and lefties will post the list when the time comes.

	13-06-2003 08:47									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Lancer, True.. but lying is not the way to go with war either. Though I argue that Bush necessarily did not lie.
He's not the head of Pentagon. Pentagon provides (?) the information, and they are responsible for what information they give and how they make them look and what conclutions they make from their own reports, and what they recommend, and how they use their special experts. I bet they can get anything look dangerous if they want to, so how their reports were when they reached Bush. It could have been an honest mistake too from the side of Pentagon. Or, maybe they are 100% correct and right on the button, but for some reason they have been failing finding them.

What is sure now, is that they did not have knowledge of where they were. Maybe they thought they did, but in reality they didn't. Now, if they actually have WMDs in Iraq, what kind of danger they would have posed to US troops, as they could have not destroyed them in time. The way I see it, US troops were in grave danger because of faulty or incomplete intelligence information. Now that's hazardous. Maybe honest mistake, maybe not, who knows.

	13-06-2003 08:54									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

So, because of incomplete information, someone must have pushed this really hard from Pentagon. Or at least this is what I believe until I learn something new.
This person needs to be investigated, because in my opinion he put US troops in dangerous position. And if the investigation shows real hard pushing because of personal agenda or what ever, then it is even more serious, since you can't go doing things like these, they start wars!

If it was an honest mistake by this person(s), they still need to be kicked in the butt for not doing their jobs. They could have always said 'We are not sure'. Even though I believe the results in Iraq were good, there still needs to be some butt kicking, to prevent these things happening. If not for anything else, then for that the troops won't face such danger because of '100% sure information'.

	13-06-2003 09:15									#57
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Fez, OK, so you are confident. But how long are you willing to give Bush? If no WMD's have been found a year from now, will you still be confident?

	13-06-2003 09:17									#58
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Pekka, why are you ruling out the possibility that the WMD's were destroyed in the mid 90's?

	13-06-2003 09:17									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Fez, OK, so you are confident. But how long are you willing to give Bush? If no WMD's have been found a year from now, will you still be confident?

I'll give him up to a month before the election.

	13-06-2003 09:18									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Pekka So, because of incomplete information, someone must have pushed this really hard from Pentagon. Or at least this is what I believe until I learn something new.

You mean Wolfy the warmonger?