13-06-2003 07:24									#1
	If there's no WMD, Bush loses my vote. Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I hate to be lied to.

I still have hope that the desert of Iraq will yield the goods, but that hope is diminished.

If Bush had no intel of WMD, as bad as Saddam was, if he was no threat to the US, then we should not be losing a soldier a day over there. Not that that's too great a price, a hundred soldiers a day, and I among them, for a right cause. Not one for no reason.

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Last edited by Lancer on 13-06-2003 at 08:13

	13-06-2003 07:25									#2
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I got a feeling the WMD will rise several months before the election.

Anyways, these weapons just can't disappear. They were there, that is fact. But where the hell are they?

	13-06-2003 07:27									#3
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Whoa, hang on a minute Lancer.

Might be an idea to see who the Democratic contender is first?

I mean, could be even worse candidate - unlikely but possible.

	13-06-2003 07:27									#4
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You're a good man, Lancer. It's not bad to expect honesty on the job from anybody, least of all our president, especially when lives have been lost for this apparently fallacious evidence.

	13-06-2003 07:28									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Whoa, hang on a minute Lancer. Might be an idea to see who the Democratic contender is first? I mean, could be even worse candidate - unlikely but possible.

He didn't say he'd vote for anybody else, nor if he did that it would be the Democrat. There are other candidates.

	13-06-2003 07:29									#6
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Fallacious? Just wait. I will bet my life on it that something will be found. Not literally, but figuratively speaking.

	13-06-2003 07:30									#7
	Re: If there's no WMD, Bush loses my vote. Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Lancer If Bush had no intel of WMD, as bad as Safddam was, if he was no threat to the US, then we should not be losing a soldier a day over there.

Ah, an interesting observation. Since Bush declared an end to the fighting, we've had an American soldier die per day over there. Good thing the fighting is over, I'd hate to see what it would be like otherwise!

	13-06-2003 07:30									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Not literally, but figuratively speaking.

Chicken.

	13-06-2003 07:31									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Fallacious? Just wait. I will bet my life on it that something will be found. Not literally, but figuratively speaking.

I call them as I see them, Fez. Your "bets" are pretty meaningless to me. Until they are found, I'm sure you'll agree that I must assume they do not exist. This isn't me hating Bush, it's just me observing the facts.

	13-06-2003 07:32									#10
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Cruddy, who cares who he is? Elect him and hamstring him with a repub congress.

Assuming always that WMD aren't found.

Fez, screw that. Don't you get it? There is no plant. Such stuff is the fluff behind conspiracy. Nixon is gone.

cyclotron

	13-06-2003 07:32									#11
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Boris, I got too much ahead of my life to make such a bet for real.

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 I call them as I see them, Fez. Your "bets" are pretty meaningless to me. Until they are found, I'm sure you'll agree that I must assume they do not exist. This isn't me hating Bush, it's just me observing the facts.

Well I am assuming they do because things just don't disappear in thin air.

	13-06-2003 07:33									#12
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they're in syria now, lets invade them!

	13-06-2003 07:36									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I got a feeling the WMD will rise several months before the election. Anyways, these weapons just can't disappear. They were there, that is fact. But where the hell are they?

the finishing touches are being applied to them as we speak (ie an Iraqi flag painted on), now give it 2 weeks shipping time from Area 52 to Iraq...

	13-06-2003 07:37									#14
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Soul Survivor, better show me the intel this time around.

If it's good, then go.

Don't mistake me here. The stuff could very well turn up. The search continues. However, it's surprising they don't havre it yet. That country was searched by satalite down to the grain of sand. It's...screwed up.

	13-06-2003 07:37									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Well I am assuming they do because things just don't disappear in thin air.

You are making the basic assumption that they existed in the first place.

This is flawed. I am making the assumption that they may or may not exist, because we don't really know. Think about it: did Powell ever actually show us weapons? No, he showed us "weapons sites" and "laboratories" and those wierd trucks.

If we make no assumptions, than it is up to the government to prove that, in fact, these weapons ever existed. Personally, I did not support the war because there was no good proof for this before the war, but to then go ahead and invade and not find any proof afterwards is a betrayal of the American people.

	13-06-2003 07:38									#16
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I'm glad to see that you are a man of principles, Lancer.

But I expect WMDs to be conveniently discovered a few months before the election too. Most probably not a huge arsenal that who'd have destroyed the world, but a few barrels or chemical ****.

Saddam most probably had traces of chemical weapons research, and these traces will conveniently be displayed at the best moment for Bush's political career. My scenario anyways.

	13-06-2003 07:38									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Well I am assuming they do because things just don't disappear in thin air.

If you've never seen them in the first place the tricks quite easy

	13-06-2003 07:39									#18
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reds, that's the kind of BS that makes the lefties world go round. You all get stoned and think **** up that just wouldn't be possible.

Even Reagan with the arms for hostages came out, and that was fairly lame. Maybe even a good idea...

	13-06-2003 07:39									#19
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A couple of nights ago I was at a cast party for one of my opera productions. I was seated across from a woman who was in the chorus and her husband. I had recalled the woman wearing a shirt in rehearsals that said "Proud to Support my Son in Iraq" or something. So I asked what their story was.

They had both a son and a daughter over there, and the son was apparently involved with the recent find of the stash of money. The daughter is on her way home, I think.

When I asked them about the search for WMD, both became quite indignant. They were, to be blunt, very upset they had not been found and were beginning to believe the administration had lied. The consequence is that they were seeing that their children had been sent into to harms way for a lie, and they were most angry about it. The husband was particularly rankled, as he had done 3 tours (!) in Vietnam and didn't like the idea of American soldiers getting killed when they didn't need to. He also expressed that, since the Iraqis crumpled so easily, he doesn't believe a bit of the talk about them being a threat to anyone.

Food for thought, at least.

	13-06-2003 07:40									#20
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Cyclotron: I felt there was enough evidence. And no my reason is not flawed. Sorry I am not backing down from this position. They are there and I am confident they will be found. Give it time.... Saddam and his men could of easily buried the stuff under a school or something...

And by the way people, it takes time to search a country the size of California.. they'll have to search that tunnel system next... if they haven't started already.

	13-06-2003 07:40									#21
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Spiffor, that's just BS.

	13-06-2003 07:42									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer reds, that's the kind of BS that makes the lefties world go round. You all get stoned and think **** up that just wouldn't be possible. Even Reagan with the arms for hostages came out, and that was fairly lame. Maybe even a good idea...

Don't get me wrong Lancer, I think he had Bio-Chemical weapons, I DON"T think Bush/Blair had the intel/proof/whatever that they say they did, QED we were lied to.

	13-06-2003 07:43									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor But I expect WMDs to be conveniently discovered a few months before the election too. Most probably not a huge arsenal that who'd have destroyed the world, but a few barrels or chemical ****. Saddam most probably had traces of chemical weapons research, and these traces will conveniently be displayed at the best moment for Bush's political career. My scenario anyways.

This is what I think... Bush knows what to pull.. who knows US forces probably discovered something already but the adminstration is not releasing info to the public and waiting for the right moment. That is politics.

	13-06-2003 07:43									#24
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Spiffor, it depends on what people remember. If people remember vaguely that there were some chemical thingies or something in Iraq, and Bush shows them some, there will be no anger.

If people remember Powell's lists of all the gallons of nerve gas and sh*t, and Bush shows them a handful of "weapons supplies," then I think the jig is up for Bush in 2004.

	13-06-2003 07:44									#25
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I am sorry cyclo, but the jig won't be up for Bush in 2004 either way. The democrats are far too weak to present a viable candidate.

	13-06-2003 07:46									#26
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reds, that's the thing. As pres you play the hunch if you have the balls (Clinton never did) and that may be what Bush did. However if he is wrong, he's soo wrong that the price must be paid.

Napoleon with his lucky generals, same thing.

	13-06-2003 07:47									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Cyclotron: I felt there was enough evidence. And no my reason is not flawed. Sorry I am not backing down from this position. They are there and I am confident they will be found. Give it time.... Saddam and his men could of easily buried the stuff under a school or something...

I don't blame you for thinking there was enough evidence, I suppose that's your decision as a critically thinking human being. I do not, however, think that you should assume these weapons exist and dismiss the idea that they never did out of hand.

As for time, they have until Nov. 2004. Although even that probably won't get my vote, since I'm dissatisfied in other ways.

quote: And by the way people, it takes time to search a country the size of California.. they'll have to search that tunnel system next... if they haven't started already.

They have near complete control of the country, and several top advisors in custody. It's odd they haven't found at least something...

	13-06-2003 07:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 I don't blame you for thinking there was enough evidence, I suppose that's your decision as a critically thinking human being. I do not, however, think that you should assume these weapons exist and dismiss the idea that they never did out of hand.

I have gone over things carefully and thought about it. I do dismiss the claim that these weapons haven't existed. I am confident they do.

quote: As for time, they have until Nov. 2004. Although even that probably won't get my vote, since I'm dissatisfied in other ways.

Anybody up for bets on October 2004 they will suddenly appear?

quote: They have near complete control of the country, and several top advisors in custody. It's odd they haven't found at least something...

You don't know if they haven't already found something nor do I as I am not there. That capture of 400 loyalists recently might even prove better. At least one or two will talk.

	13-06-2003 07:52									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer reds, that's the thing. As pres you play the hunch if you have the balls (Clinton never did) and that may be what Bush did. However if he is wrong, he's soo wrong that the price must be paid. Napoleon with his lucky generals, same thing.

I don't know what went on in the US so much, but in the UK we were always being promised 'documents' that never came.

As soon as you lie your country in order to do what you think is right for them, you're a dictator in my book.

Mr Bonaparte fits the bill.....

	13-06-2003 07:53									#30
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Fez, it was the same way w/Bush1. Clinton was and is a bit of fluff who couldn't have been worse. He rode an economy that was on its way up, and even he couldn't **** it up. He was a pretty boy for the feminist left and the gays, so they still have it on for him. Sure, there is nobody to run against Bush2, but last time, nobody did ok, because his constituants were so corrupted.