13-06-2003 12:28									#1
	Is the muslim civilian population really "innocent" Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Note: I don't actually believe this, I'm just posing this question for discussion amongst the posters.

I've seen the usual arguments that terrorists only represent a small portion of the population, and that most people are just regular working people trying to make a living.

If that is the case, why don't they stand up for what is right? Why do they allow terrorists, militants, and extremists to hijack their religion to justify genocide and murder? They should be on local media denouncing terrorists activities. They should make it well known that they do not support terrorism.

There have been reports of widespread terrorist funding by the civlilian population in muslim countries and muslims in other nations such as the U.S. Their entire religion was initially spread through warfare. Without warfare they would have no religion. They are encouraged to spread their religion through any means including warfare.

discuss

As for my opinion, I have to believe the muslim population is scared of the terrorists themselves. They fear consequences of standing up to the militants. The religious leaders lack the courage to change the focus of the religion from war to peace. The terrorists can be compared to gangs in some neighborhoods in the U.S. The residents are forced to put up with it, if they stand up for what is right, they will be killed. But it still bothers me all these muslim "charities" are fronts for supporting terrorists. There are still millions of people who want to see all jews and christians dead.

	13-06-2003 13:33									#2
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I've seen the usual arguments that governments only represent a small portion of the population, and that most people are just regular working people trying to make a living.

If that is the case, why don't they stand up for what is right? Why do they allow politicians, lobyists, and extremists to hijack their government to justify illegal overseas wars They should be on local media denouncing Government activities. They should make it well known that they do not support their Government.

There have been reports of widespread government funding by the civlilian population in western countries and people in other nations such as the U.S. Their entire constitution and government was initially created through warfare. Without warfare they would have no country or government of their own. They are encouraged to spread their culture through any means including warfare.



Not that I agree with this, just making the point.

	13-06-2003 13:53									#3
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Not everyone is a born activist, and not everyone should be obligated to surrender survival for a chip at what's wrong. Many of these people have sh*t, and are simply trying to survive

As an old humanities Professor mimicked, a handful of well off knights running around old Europe demanding "allegiance to the just and logic sect of God's approval, on punishment of death!" aren't often going to receive much more than "Whu?" in sincere response from the average peasant, covered in dirt and rags.

	13-06-2003 16:15									#4
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Most of the civilian, well-behaved, populace support the militants, freedom-fighters, and what have you. It's their "boys", i.e. equivalence of an army. It's the propaganda and indoctrination that tells them they're at war though.

	13-06-2003 18:09									#5
	Re: Is the muslim civilian population really "innocent" Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dissident Note: I don't actually believe this, I'm just posing this question for discussion amongst the posters. I've seen the usual arguments that terrorists only represent a small portion of the population, and that most people are just regular working people trying to make a living. If that is the case, why don't they stand up for what is right? Why do they allow terrorists, militants, and extremists to hijack their religion to justify genocide and murder? They should be on local media denouncing terrorists activities. They should make it well known that they do not support terrorism. There have been reports of widespread terrorist funding by the civlilian population in muslim countries and muslims in other nations such as the U.S. Their entire religion was initially spread through warfare. Without warfare they would have no religion. They are encouraged to spread their religion through any means including warfare. discuss As for my opinion, I have to believe the muslim population is scared of the terrorists themselves. They fear consequences of standing up to the militants. The religious leaders lack the courage to change the focus of the religion from war to peace. The terrorists can be compared to gangs in some neighborhoods in the U.S. The residents are forced to put up with it, if they stand up for what is right, they will be killed. But it still bothers me all these muslim "charities" are fronts for supporting terrorists. There are still millions of people who want to see all jews and christians dead.

There are many Americans who have been disgusted with the various genocides of Rwanda and Bosnia, yet they never actively did anything to protest such crimes against humanity.
Does this mean that those same Americans really support genocidal acts? No, it does not.
Same applies to Muslims who have not actively protested terrorist acts, even though they are not happy about such things.

Christianity in the Middle Ages was spread through violence and pillage, so does this mean that Christians today are evil because of what unrelated ancestors have done to other people? No, it does not mean that.
Same applies to Muslims today, who are probably sick and tired of being told they are responsible for the Arabian jihad of the late ancient era.

	13-06-2003 18:13									#6
	Re: Is the muslim civilian population really "innocent" Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Dissident If that is the case, why don't they stand up for what is right? Why do they allow terrorists, militants, and extremists to hijack their religion to justify genocide and murder? They should be on local media denouncing terrorists activities. They should make it well known that they do not support terrorism.

Because you are equating passivity with active support.

Those with the guns tend to give the orders. Those without survive as best they can.

If you think I'm going to comment further on the culpable guilt of over a billion people, you must think I'm an arrogant bastard.

	13-06-2003 19:42									#7
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"Here we go with the old oxymoron again : Innocent civilians of Palestine"

(The Mad Monk and CyberGNU would understand )

I think the Palestinian civilians are about as innoicent as the Israeli civilians : they don't want war at all costs, at first, but they are living under so shitty living conditions, and under such fear, that they are being radicalised into listening to the hawks rather than to the doves.

	13-06-2003 19:45									#8
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Yeah, but the guy who runs my local shop is a Muslim civilian and he's not guilty of anything. Even gave us a special discount for buying many beers in one go once.

	13-06-2003 19:55									#9
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Its only a tiny proportion of the Muslim population that are terrorists and members of terrorist organisations.

What is not in question is that many Muslims, probably the majority, support actions against the West. Nonetheless, they are entitled to an opinion, and that is about as bad as those that support the West's actions, and wish harm on Muslim populations and nations.

Having an opinion or a belief is not putting them at fault for the actions of the terrorists, an idea is not responsible for those that believe in it, and despite the popular support for terrorists, for various reasons, some of them very valid, we should differentiate between the two.

	13-06-2003 20:16									#10
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quote: What is not in question is that many Muslims, probably the majority, support actions against the West.

That most certainly is in question!!!

	13-06-2003 20:49									#11
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Yes, they are as innocent as any civilian population is. Most people are inherently apolitical. At most, they might voice vocal support for somehting, but will never actually do anything to activelly support the cause. Most will just live their lives.

	14-06-2003 11:13									#12
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uhh, Mike H we did protest the war.

did you not see that? hundreds of thousands of people were protested the war.

the argument is stupid. we have freedom of speech in the U.S., and many people utilize that fully,

	14-06-2003 11:17									#13
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I am suprised by how many no votes there are.

I wonder how many of those are serious votes. That is the primary reason I created this poll. I wanted to see who felt this way but were not going to every post their views publically.

I already said my opinion above. I equate the terrorists with gangland activity in the U.S. Most of the population is too scared to speak out against the gangs. Yet I'm still bothered by how many people cheered the 9/11 attacks.

	14-06-2003 11:27									#14
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I think they're all serious(w/in normal proportion) dissident.

	14-06-2003 11:37									#15
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to be more in depth. I can't tell how many of these are american. but I don't think americans are as passive to anti americanism anymore.

	14-06-2003 13:21									#16
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1. We can't judge one culture by the standards of our own.
2. If the "silent majority" continues to be silent then they are perpetuating the problem.

Its amazing how little they seem to care about having their culture and religion hijacked. Until they stand up for themselves, their culture and religion will continue to be seen in a negative way. Their future is there for the taking if they dare.

	15-06-2003 04:32									#17
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I don't think the muslim population is all innocent, or as peace-loving and scared as some would present them.

Many of them do feel a part of a muslim nation, and do want to defeat the west. If not to destroy it, at least to stop being defeated by it each and everytime.

Many of them do support terrorism and do think it's a good idea and do not make the same distinction between those who think up actions (govt.) who performs it (soldiers) and who supports or disaproves of it (innocent civilians).

In their eyes, if you really don't support your govt. you'd change sides to their side, convert and begin to actively fight your govt. giving them the winning edge.

The population is also under constant media encitement. The media is racist, lying, fabricating stories and so on. Forget claims about NYT or CNN fabricating stories. Forget commie claims about media control by US govt. What happens in Saudia or Iran or Syria is far far worse.


What some hot heads may deduce from my post is that I agree to targetting civilians. Well I don't. But I don't think they are as blameless as you might want to see them.


For some reason, many lefties think of the arab population to be somewhat like the western population of people who are too lame ass to vote or make a difference.

Well that, folkes is racism. The arab population is just as capable at raising heroes, leaders and revolutionaries. But the fact is, that the heroes and leaders that grow there, are usually racist, terrorist and fundamentalist.

Just because they don't prescribe to the western philosophy of revolutionaries and leaders, doesn't mean they aren't such.


The same was often said about the russian population of the soviet union. That they are either too lame or too scared or anything.

But the fact is, that it is untrue. The USSR population did believe in communism and in it's leaders and in their propoganda. They believed and followed whole heartedly and hated the west.

But ever since the 50s, the population of disillisioned began to grow more and more. There were human rights activists and pacifists, who not only weren't afraid to take a stand against the govt., but also took action against it, unlike many pretense muslim 'humanists' who speak alot to please the western ears, but do nothing.

And during the 70s and 80s the amount of people who were disilusioned grew to a large enough number that they eventually caused reform (Gorbachov) and later a revolution (Yeltzin).

Gorbachov and Yeltzin weren't exactly big demcrats or public doers. They merely sensed the public and knew that the public is against them, and that they have to ride the public opinion, to have a chance at staying in power.

During the 80s the soviet public had a critical mass of people who resisted their government's policy and politics and they changed that.


The muslim public, by large still believes in the ideals that are sold to them by bin laden.

Recent polls in the muslim world show that Bin Laden, and Yassir Arafat and Saddam Hussein are the most populat and are hugely popular. They have no emotional squabbles supporting murderors of innocent people, who abuse their own people.

The muslim culture, has sadly yet to grow up.

	15-06-2003 04:39									#18
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quote: That most certainly is in question!!!

Talk to a sample of Muslims from across the world, in first, second and third world nations. You will find greater than 95% of them resentful over Gulf War II, many (albeit a minority in the Western world) that do not condemn 9/11, many (especially in the third world... those that have suffered most) that condone 9/11 and a significant, but relatively small minority that hate America and the West.

	15-06-2003 11:06									#19
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Well, one can make the argument that no one is innocent. Is the average European/American citizen innocent if he continues to buy cheaper cloth though he knows that often people in slave-like conditions are exploited to produce tham and make them cheap?
Humans are never innocent, thus muslim civilians aren't. Islam is no peaceful religion either, that's for sure.

But making tmuslim civilians (all over the muslim world) be guilty of collaborating with terrorists because there aren't huge protests against them on the street seems pretty ridiculous as the vast majority muslims DO NOT think the attacks are justified, they just often tend to think that at least it wasn't the wrong nation that was hit...
It's always extremely dangerous to view a whole population as guilty. This means completely disregarding and not trying to understand the other, things are never that simple and civ. Just take the muslim terrorists themselves: Although Islam explicitely forbids innocent civilians to be killed in a war against the non-believers, they justified their attacks with the argument that American civilians contribute to the American politics of aggression.

	15-06-2003 11:15									#20
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as rascist as i am, even i do not believe all muslims are terrorists, et al.

i say, we send in a lot of forces in hiding to arab cities, and have someone tell the populous that the american government has collapsed, that a terrorist has taken out the white house.

all arabs who leave their house to celebrate would be shot.

	15-06-2003 12:15									#21
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Just swayed to 11/12 - Voted No

I'm going to do an Essay, there is probably a Majority of Innocent Muslim's but this 'tiny minority' that people like to go on about is less tiny than they would like to beleive. People who i have before considered 'normal' suddenly surfaced a fanatical side when to come to the War in Iraq and actually voiced support for people such as Saddam.

Very few are active terrorists, but quite a few are supporting thier murderous few.

	15-06-2003 12:50									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov The muslim culture, has sadly yet to grow up.

Cultural maturity is a problem many nations have and the disparity in maturity may be a root cause in much of the conflict in the world.

	15-06-2003 13:21									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Worthingtons I'm going to do an Essay, there is probably a Majority of Innocent Muslim's but this 'tiny minority' that people like to go on about is less tiny than they would like to beleive. People who i have before considered 'normal' suddenly surfaced a fanatical side when to come to the War in Iraq and actually voiced support for people such as Saddam.

Yes, Arabs are marching towards more and more radicalism. In the case of your Arab avquaintances, I think it has to do with the reason exposed by Siro : Arabs want to see the humiliating West vainquished by the Arab nation. It's a das yet ordinary feeling of revenge (our WW1 and 2 were more or less based on this feelinf)