14-06-2003 01:40									#1
	Our anonymous sympathizer Put an end to popups!

And to this that this came from a member of RP.
Good news, they don't all hate us!

quote: As you asked, as a friend I am letting you know. In the war of politics and of public relations, you are loosing badly. Beta is an expert in the PR field. He knows how to say things to sway people to a point of view whether or not it is right, correct or what not. When Beta posts something like his “Announcement from Vox”, realize two things. First, he has been working on his post for probably 2-3 days. In this case I know for a fact that the post was basically written 2 days prior to it going up. How, because he went and sent draft copies to each team. WHAT! Yes. Of course he did. That is how the game is played. He solicited reactions PRIOR to posting it and making it public. He sent a draft around to each team asking them “I intend on posting this, and expect this reaction, what do you think?” He gives out his background, states his reasoning, and so on. If somebody doesn’t understand a point he is trying to make, or if they are misinterpreting it, he revises it. Notice how there are few if any comments from other teams about his initial post? That’s why. What he is doing is looking for a reaction from your team, and you gave it to him. I am not saying that you shouldn’t just respond. What I am saying that you need to recognize what he is doing, what he is looking for, and WHY he is looking for it. Then you can react. I did not see your initial post. Regardless, your secondary post is still sounding like you are the bad guy. No, do not change it. Just by editing it you create a bad impression. Just pay attention in the future. Something that you and your team should do is like follows: A) Acknowledge the post. Post something like; “We, the members of GS recognize this post. We are debating our official response. We deplore the accusations within this post, and find that they are not based on ALL the facts. We expect to post an official response within the next 36 hours. You may contact us privately at your convenience regarding these issues in the mean time.” B) While debating your official response in your PRIVATE room (so go ahead and use all the bad language you are undoubtedly feeling), have an ambassador contact each team (doesn’t have to be official, but looks better if it is) privately asking their opinion without necessarily revealing any details of your own. This way, you can incorporate the sentiments of the other teams into your Official Response. Chats can be great for doing this. I know that Togas and BigFree from RP are usually logged on in chats all day for just this type of thing. C) Post your official response. When you do this, the person who posts it is also now the official response person for the entire thing. Yes, that means that they will be asked all sorts of Q’s (usually) and anything that they post (either prior to or after) that official post are taken to be official. D) Watch all unofficial responses prior to the official one. If you start sounding defensive, or start attacking them, then people will start to make impressions. Impressions that you don’t want them to make. The best course if you wish to respond is to use humor. Laugh at things. Disarm people. You should, if you are paying attention to what I am saying, understand or at least think you know what they are looking for. Use that to your advantage. In all unofficial posts, do your best to make sure that people know that it is Unofficial and just your opinion. OK. Enough rambling on. I only wrote all of this as you in your posts requested assistance in the PR game. Feel free to pass this on to your team (although keep my name out of it please) if you feel that it may help them. Sorry, didn’t intend on sounding like a professor. Some people may consider what I wrote here to be "betraying secrets" which is why if you pass it on I would prefer my name be left out.

	14-06-2003 01:59									#2
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This is unbelievable.

Does this mean, that Beta's stunt has been known and approved by every other team?

Sorry to say this, but the last bit of fun I had in this game, is now gone. I will never -ever- participate in a democracy game again.

	14-06-2003 02:14									#3
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I think it is unbelieveable too, but it doesn;t piss me off... it's just a dimension to MP that I hadn't real thought of (which pisses me off at me).

There's the sort of MP gameplay that you find on the ladders, which is just playing SP against much better (hopefully) opponents, i.e., humans. Well more than that, but not by too much.

This is an ENTIRELY different level... SR, let's have fun with it!!!

I'd like us to go into political hyper gear... and put on a show!! Help me do this StormHawk thing. Let's do it publicly as if we are total psychop rogues, flame like mad, but coordinate it here in the private forum.

	14-06-2003 02:18									#4
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This is part of another message from our anonymous sympathizer.
I think that we already realize that, but I felt that it is worth repeating, so:

quote: I don't mind your team knowing where it came from. I am just concerned that some members of my team, as well as other teams who are heavily involved in the diplomicy thing, will think of me "turning trator" by giving away "secrets". Ya, whatever. Nothing within is a real secret. Everybody knows that most of the real diplomicy occures in chats prior to anything within the game. And I hope that your team can benifit from this. If I was in your shoes, I would crush Vox. I think so would any other team. It is just that if you don't crush them, the other teams have a better chance against you (and I am sure you realize it, but everybody is just hiding this fact in flowery language calling for peace...).

Theseus: YES!! YES YES YES YES!!
Let's give them HELL!!

	14-06-2003 02:18									#5
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I wouldn't say approved, Sir Ralph. Just that Beta is once again running rings arround us in PR.

What I really wish is that everyone on this team could learn to shut up. A thread like that opens and then we circle round and jump in for pecks like a pack of carrion beasts. So many words are typed that there is bound to be stuff that our enemies can twist to suit their own perspective and to influence others. We've done it repeatedly. Even though a thread was set up here to discuss our response, several people launched into it on their own anyway. Each said things well in their own way, but the net result is that we come off as bullying amateurs. One Voxian speaks up, and is shouted at or scolded by 4 or 5 or 6 of us.

I would not ever contemplate taking the job of FAM for this team. It would be like trying to herd cats, and anything I set out to accomplish would be undermined by the anarchic nature of us all doing whatever struck our fancy at the time.

My guess is that we are going to lose this game. It will not be our economy, or our military that will cost us the title. It will be our own inability to charge someone with the diplomatic job and then shut up while he does it for us.

	14-06-2003 02:29									#6
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Or, we could turn our not inconsiderable talents to the diplo challenge.

	14-06-2003 02:30									#7
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I did recommend to shut up from the very start. And I did not say a single word in that thread, even till now, because I know, that what I say, would be used against the team. I am pissed beyond all limits and there is no hope I calm down soon.

	14-06-2003 02:43									#8
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I am trying, but it is tough to herd cats... I did wait, but the team did not. NYE has been very stable regarding his advice to us. I even chated w/ RP last night to get a feel for them.


[minor rant...]
How many ambassadors have really checked in when I asked to feel out the other teamd re: voxes survival and what they are willing to see and do?...
[end rant]

I actually tried to head this off, too little to late.

I need the team to work and edit a single document to post. I can direct it and start it, but I need the fibness of all of us to make it work.

We need a diplomatic team who will follow diretion ANDbe self initated. Not to post in public, except for a single reply from the team with the FAM/MoDA sanction.

Random thoughts of a cat hearding frustrated MoDA
Mss

	14-06-2003 02:52									#9
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True, Theseus. However, we really need coordination. Of course other people would be involved, but we need a FAM and perhaps an assistant with a plan, and allow those people to guide us.

In the ISDG, I have the power given to me to do whatever I please (along with 2 others) however I do not do squat in diplomacy without discussing it with Togas. He and I may have had our differences here, but I am not carrying that baggage. Having a FAM and allowing him to shape a coherent foreign policy based on the teams desires and communicated to others through ambassadors is very powerful.

In the ISDG nothing is done or said to another team without the knowledge and input of the FAM.

Sir Ralph, you and me both. It just took me a bit longer to realise that going off on my own was not an asset for this team. Of course there is a time and place to speak up, but what we really need now is a coherent voice to speak for us with the other teams. No matter how well the words are crafted, to have 3 or 4 people saying many of the same things in a single thread cannot benefit us.

	14-06-2003 03:06									#10
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If the team would allow me I can coordinate it. We just need people to RESTRAIN themselves. Compleatly and absolutely... You said it right elsewhere... FAM despot, I would call it Minister of Dilploamatic Affairs or Dimplomacy Czar

Mss

	14-06-2003 03:13									#11
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Well, it seems we know who the sympathizer is... I sort of suspected as much from sentence structure and such.

	14-06-2003 03:21									#12
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quote: This is an ENTIRELY different level...

You can say that again, and ATM I've got very mixed feelings about it.

On the one hand it's a challenge, on the other it ends being a game.

	14-06-2003 03:44									#13
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People must be upset with Vox's ploy and the way that things are being run on the diplomatic front... that's why we have so many sympathizers (UnOrthO, Master Zen, Vondrack) that give us tips and say things that they might be punished for saying.
The current system cannot hold. We can destroy it, I bet - or join it, but create an entirely new order (possibly a war on Bob would promote that event).

	14-06-2003 03:53									#14
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HOLY ****! I'm totally with Sir Ralph on this.

THIS IS BULLSHIT!

That's just ****ing slimey, as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't even THINK of doing something that low.

Damn, I don't even know if I want to "play" this anymore.

That's awful. But serious kudos to the guy who blew the whistle on it. What boggles me is that noone else batted an eyelash at that type of crap! NO WONDER we've been getting beat up in those public threads. We never stood a ****ing chance!

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 03:55									#15
	Put an end to popups!

alva, man, it's a game.

	14-06-2003 03:56									#16
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Oh, and if I did something wrong, MSS, tell me. I thought we had agreed on the wording of our "official reponse" and so I posted it.

If my subsequent posts were wrong... damn, I apologize.

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 04:05									#17
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quote: Damn, I don't even know if I want to "play" this anymore.

You're not the only one considering, before taking any decision I'm gonna sleep over it and perhaps even take a couple of days.
This surely has made some dent in my fun department.

Unless off course the message is a set-up too.
Jezy Crezy, I'm getting paranoid

	14-06-2003 04:13									#18
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A huge dent.

But I'm not going to do anything rash just yet.

I think I'll have a few stiff drinks and think about it (probably get even more pissed off). Then I'll sleep on it.

Drink #1 is already down.

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 04:21									#19
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Thus their propaganda war begins to yield real results. Prominent members of Gathering Storm begin to lose morale.

Let's play our game, shall we. Let us reflect on the situation after we have stuffed the last Voxian into a pine box.

	14-06-2003 04:21									#20
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Personally, I think letting the world diplomacy stage take away our ability to speak as individuals would take more fun out of the game than the benefits would be worth.

	14-06-2003 04:30									#21
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quote: Thus their propaganda war begins to yield real results.

That is the main raison I'm still only considering.

quote: Personally, I think letting the world diplomacy stage take away our ability to speak as individuals would take more fun out of the game than the benefits would be worth.

Indeed, a bit of organising is fine by me and probably needed etc., but handling this "game" as a presidental election or some UN business sounds to much to me.
In the words of Trip; "I'm here basically to have fun"

	14-06-2003 04:42									#22
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I gotta tell ya, though, if OUR foreign minister had suggested doing what Beta has done for Vox, I would have objected.

Seriously. I know, this comes down to my own personal views as to what is honorable or whatever, but that's just the way I feel.

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 04:43									#23
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I agree with both Nathan and alva. Of course we have to stay involved as individuals in the world, if we so desire. What we need is to involve ourselves in ways that do not hinder the goals of the Foreign Office.

That may be a tall order, but if we want to turn the tide we will have to find a way to fill it.

To be honest, after your post, Nathan, and then Arrian's which was done with MSS's approval, the third post by MSS was over board. It's a case of we all need to check ourselves and not let our own personal needs override the good of the team. There is still room for fun, but that thread probably wasn't it. We need to learn some patience and stop stampeding. We can all get better at this aspect of the game.

BTW, could we start a thread where fun is the order of the day? Not trash talking, but a place for all of the members of various teams to gather and swap chat?

	14-06-2003 04:50									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I gotta tell ya, though, if OUR foreign minister had suggested doing what Beta has done for Vox, I would have objected. Seriously. I know, this comes down to my own personal views as to what is honorable or whatever, but that's just the way I feel. -Arrian

I agree fully. The head games they are playing with us are certainly not a pleasure to receive, are they?

Let us plan our own games for them that do not involve trying to break the spirit through weasel words.

Of all the duplicitous crap that I have seen, the suggestions by RP, GoW and Lego that we let Vox live 'because it's the nice thing to do', has just about got to top it all. As if any of them would even be talking to Vox at this point. However, I believe it is also more than many members of those other teams can stomach as well. Hense, this incident may end up well for us.

	14-06-2003 04:53									#25
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Where's Vel when you need him
-
Not sure if the timing is right for something like that though, it will probably look very, well, 'constructed'.
However having said that, we could try to threadjack/spice-up GF's thread.
(Glory of news

	14-06-2003 04:53									#26
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That's what I'm hoping, NYE.

I'm hoping there are more people like Whitebandit (our sympathizer?) who see our side, and perhaps feel Beta's machinations are slimey.

But I'm discouraged by how much success his bullshit has met with.

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 05:10									#27
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The 'success' that his bull is meeting with is the leadership of three other teams who stand to lose power relative to us if we take out Vox, are part of a last ditch effort to disuade us from finishing the job.

Togas from RP (Monarch). MasterZen from GoW (Foreign Affairs Minister), and vondrack from Lego (ex President, and current Minister of War). Throw in Tiberius, who has spoken for Lego's official position. That's it. UnO, WB, even GFarb are taking a much more neutral tack, or even seeming to favour us.

The only success that thread can have is in our minds if they succeed in the object of undermining our resolve to finish the job on Vox.

I used to favour peace with Vox. Now, after seeing this crap, I must support Sir Ralph and yourself. Kill them. Destroy them. Run them into the sea. I will have had enough when the lamentations of the last of their women is cut short by a Stormian blade. No mercy.

When it is all over, tell the rest of the world that their campaign had the effect opposite to their desire. It flipped the last dove of Gathering Storm into a hawk bent on the total destruction of any who dare to deal with us as they have.

	14-06-2003 05:14									#28
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You know, I was just talking about this with Amy, and I have to say, that while from an honor stand-point I agree EXACTLY with how Arrian phrased it, and while I feel the same as everyone does about Beta's lies...

Look, this may not be the way any of us would play (thus, we are on a team together), but I gotta say, Vox has NOT broken any rules, and in fact, by being BRILLIANTLY unorthodox has caught us with our pants down not once, but twice!!

Amy's reaction was, "Beat the crap out of them, or even if you lose, maintain your composure and honor, don;t drop to their level, don;t be sneaky or immoral... it's a game, that's kind of gross. At some point, you may want to raise this with the rest of the teams, but for now, it sounds like this guy bent the rules but didn't break them."

I further say: This is how the world works. Imagine what goes on in and around the UN. And frankly, we didn;t realize it, and Beta did. Or we expected our own code of honor to apply to all, as a set of meta-rules, and that was naive.

Frankly, I'm sorta jazzed up by this... without being hubristic, I honestly believe we know how to play this game, other than the diplo / politics, better than anyone in the world, and I look forward EVEN MORE to doing so and kicking EVERYONE'S ASS, and I also believe, that in our own GS way, we will arrive at a *systemic* solution to our diplo challenges that will rock everyone's world, and be FUN.

I in a way respect Vox for accomplishing what they've accomplished, although I abhor the means... and I think in a way that was what Vondrack was trying to say.

I'll sure miss'em when they're gone.

	14-06-2003 05:16									#29
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Nicely put NYE
-

Other diversion possibility:

Patch 1.21 has come out (the international one),
Should we upgrade or not blah blah...
(If Vox would survive until next era, they are assured of getting Nationalism.)

	14-06-2003 05:17									#30
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Loved your last post, nye.